Save What You Love with Mark Titus

00:00:00:08 - 00:00:25:20
Mark Titus
Welcome to the Save What You Love podcast. I'm your host, Mark Titus. Well, glad to be back after long needed and really enjoyed hiatus here in the summertime up in Alaska and bringing to you today a fantastic podcast with my friend Linda Banking. Linda is a fellow in Salmon Nation. She is an ocean warrior. She's a recipient of the Hynes Award, which we talk about.

00:00:25:20 - 00:00:52:07
Mark Titus
It's pretty incredible. So listen on. And she's also an incredible fisherman and citizen scientist. She has amassed a collection of data points that have done incredible research on reducing bycatch and plotting out the bottom in southeast Alaska to aid fishermen and scientists. Okay. So if you are enjoying this show, consider giving us a rating on Apple Podcasts that really helps.

00:00:52:11 - 00:01:12:10
Mark Titus
And writing a review in your own words, that also helps. And if you want to read all about the vacation and trip to Alaska I just had with my wife Finca, it was outstanding and we had some really cool adventures. Head on over to evaswild.com. That's the word save spelled backwards Wild dot com and click on Connect.

00:01:12:12 - 00:01:19:16
Mark Titus
Fill in your information real quick and you will be on the newsletter list. Thanks so much for being a part of this community and enjoy the show.

00:01:19:18 - 00:01:55:19
Music
How do you save what you love?
When the world is burning down?
How do you save what you love?
When pushes come to shove.
How do you say what you love?
When things are upside down.
How do you say what you love?
When times are getting tough.

00:01:55:21 - 00:01:57:19
Mark Titus
Linda Banking. Welcome.

00:01:57:21 - 00:01:59:13
Linda Behnken
Mark, great to see you.

00:01:59:18 - 00:02:02:16
Mark Titus
You too. Where are you coming to us from today? I'm in.

00:02:02:16 - 00:02:05:19
Linda Behnken
I'm in Sitka. Or click it on.

00:02:05:20 - 00:02:19:10
Mark Titus
I know this place is gorgeous. I think it's one of the most beautiful places on Earth. And I can't wait to return and see you. And I hope very soon. How is fishing? Compared to a year ago from today?

00:02:19:12 - 00:02:45:06
Linda Behnken
Well, actually, fishing is been very good. Fishing was good last year too. Prices were terrible last year because of COVID shutting down restaurants because of tariffs just sort of the whole pandemic thing. And prices have come back this year. Some some species like the troll salmon species, the prices are quite strong, probably some of the strongest we've ever seen.

00:02:45:07 - 00:02:48:21
Linda Behnken
So yeah, feeling a little bit better that way this year.

00:02:48:23 - 00:03:04:13
Mark Titus
That's good. I know it was a severe challenge for a lot of people, especially for small family fishermen. And and it feels like things are emerging and that that is a that's a good place to be, I think.

00:03:04:15 - 00:03:30:06
Linda Behnken
Yes. Yeah. No, definitely some sense of recovery from the pandemic and some optimism about markets and just more more people paying attention to how their fish was caught and wanting to know that it was sustainable and looking for small scale, you know, community spread of fishery programs. So that's all positive.

00:03:30:08 - 00:03:52:17
Mark Titus
Totally agree. That's that's definitely what I'm observing and hearing. And it's becoming not just something of a curiosity, but something that people are mandating. We want to know where our fish, where our food is coming from, and I think that's going to help everything down the line. All right. So we've got so much to jump into today, but I'm going to start with this.

00:03:52:17 - 00:04:23:20
Mark Titus
There was a film earlier this year that lumped together all commercial fishing into one harmful trailer bag. Here's something you wrote about your experience as a fisherman, and I'm going to quote you here. Small scale fisheries support a way of life that has become increasingly rare in our industrialized world, a way of life that is inexorably tied to the natural world where individuals face forces far greater than human power and thrive only through humility and a keen awareness of natural rhythms.

00:04:23:21 - 00:04:48:00
Mark Titus
The humility instilled by working from a small boat on a big ocean offers humanity a path back to a way of life in balance with natural systems, a lesson industrialized countries must learn before the systems fail. Climate change, ocean acidification. These are the symptoms of a failing system. Small scale fishermen bear witness to faltering ocean health and serve as essential storytellers for the ocean.

00:04:48:02 - 00:05:16:21
Mark Titus
Small scale fishermen are uniquely positioned to alert humanity to the destruction driven by human greed and arrogance. They are also essential leaders in the immediate struggle to redefine our relationship with the world around us. Wow. That hit my heart in the solar plexus. Wow. With that as a backdrop, tell us your story. How did you come into this work you do and what keeps you going?

00:05:16:23 - 00:05:44:20
Linda Behnken
Let's see. So I definitely you know, I fell in love with well, I think sort of grew up loving wild places and feeling a real sense of responsibility to take care of them and give back. When I first came to Alaska and started fishing, I was not only blown away by the beauty of this place, but also felt so taken in by the fishing community and wanted to be a part of both those things.

00:05:44:20 - 00:06:14:13
Linda Behnken
This this incredible place in a deep way, and also this community of people with this this tight connection to this place. But very quickly, you start to see the threats to that way of life and the stress in the environment from different I guess for me, first it was seeing industrial trawling and the impact it was having on the way of life and our our sense of what the ocean needed to be healthy.

00:06:14:15 - 00:06:56:14
Linda Behnken
And so that was sort of my first time when I said, okay, I'll take over running the Alaska Longline Fishermen's Association. I said, I'll do it as long as you guys are all with me to try and close this area to trawling. I don't think it's compatible with ah, with ocean health or with our communities. So that was my first started Deep Dive and then that led into being very involved in fisheries management on a lot of different levels and doing all I could to help give a voice or help people find their voice that really cared deeply about place and about the health of the ocean and food systems more more generally.

00:06:56:16 - 00:07:11:15
Mark Titus
So for us in the audience here who don't know what trawler fishing is, can you give us kind of a big picture of what we're looking at with these different times, types of gear and different methods of fishing?

00:07:11:20 - 00:07:39:03
Linda Behnken
Sure, Yeah. So the kind of fishing that that I do is is hook and line. And actually, 80% of the boats working off of Alaska are under 60 feet. Family run sailing uses a net, but it's on very end Gillnets the same but it's on schools of salmon as they're entering streams. You're not catching much of anything other than your target species.

00:07:39:03 - 00:08:07:15
Linda Behnken
It's a very confined by area with with tight management of the fish going up the streams, making sure we have enough fish going up to feed the next generation before fishing is allowed to take its share that I am fishing more on the open ocean with hook and line as our other long liners or trollers which is the TR old kind of fishing trawling is with a huge net.

00:08:07:15 - 00:08:38:00
Linda Behnken
The factory boats are using nets big enough to hold multiple 740 sevens and it's it's also well open ocean some kind of trawling or hard on bottom sort of tremendous numbers of of fish caught at a time and it can be a real mixture of mostly one kind of species but also taking salmon or halibut or black cat or fish that are important to our small scale fisheries.

00:08:38:00 - 00:08:58:02
Linda Behnken
That's considered bycatch. It's generally not retained and thrown back over, but very high mortality. So throwing back over dead and at this point placing stress on those those other fish, but also on the fisheries and the communities that depend on those fish.

00:08:58:04 - 00:09:11:00
Mark Titus
So tell me a little bit more about Alaska Longline or Fishermen's Association and this trawling ban that you helped create in southeast Alaska.

00:09:11:02 - 00:09:58:17
Linda Behnken
So we I think there had been a long history of people here being very worried about trawling. There had been far in trawlers operating off the coast of Alaska before my time here, so sort of seventies, eighties with a huge impact on local resources. So big overfishing of rockfish drove down sablefish or blockade stocks, big impacts. And then in the late seventies, as the Magnuson Act started to reallocate fisheries to the U.S., there was a lot of money put in by our federal government into building a U.S. fleet with a lot of money going into building a U.S. trawl fleet that sort of took the place of those those foreign boats fishing off here.

00:09:58:19 - 00:10:23:10
Linda Behnken
And what I witnessed, you know, working as a and as crew on small boats, when a trawler came through the area, we wouldn't find fish in those areas for quite a while. Take a while to recover. And often we could tell that there had been impacts on the bottom habitat. So one year 1991, one trawler came through this area on their way to the Bering Sea.

00:10:23:10 - 00:10:43:09
Linda Behnken
They dropped their net just to make sure everything worked, basically on their way, passing through here to do a couple tows. And in those couple of tows took enough of one species of rockfish to close down our local fishery for the remainder of the year and also sort of threatened that it could also have impacts are closed down our halibut fishery.

00:10:43:11 - 00:11:16:02
Linda Behnken
So we the Alaska Longline Fishermen's Association, we asked for an emergency closure of this area to trawling while we worked on a more permanent trawl ban and we were granted the emergency trawl closure. We started working on that trawl ban with our arguments being very much resource based, just concerned about the impact on the habitat here. Southeast Alaska has a high abundance of of deep water corals, for example, and sponges and sort of naturally distributed but very easily destroyed.

00:11:16:02 - 00:11:44:18
Linda Behnken
So growing a millimeter to a centimeter a year. And you can imagine, you know, dragging heavy chains and and steel doors through there that that just levels it. So we were we're saying we're worried about habitat, we're worried about the marine mammals. So we'd already started seeing declines in sea lions, for example, and worried about the impacts on our our fish stocks and the ability of fishery managers to manage sustainably with such an industrial fishery in the area.

00:11:44:20 - 00:12:12:17
Linda Behnken
And that triggered a lot of pushback from the managers and from the travel industry. And they fought it hard. They went after my credibility as a way to try and defeat it. It was a fairly brutal introduction to fisheries management at that scale, and we lost at the at the council level on the permanent ban. And you know, people said you'll never win this sort of you're up against, you know, the mighty.

00:12:12:19 - 00:12:31:19
Linda Behnken
And I guess, you know, I just wasn't willing to give up and neither were a lot of the people I worked with. So at that point, we really started building a strong we had time on our hands, you know, if we'd lost. So what are we going to do now? So we just started reaching out to all the coastal communities.

00:12:31:21 - 00:13:01:19
Linda Behnken
The Alaska legislature passed a resolution supporting a ban in Southeast 22 communities passed resolutions supporting a ban and saying it's just not compatible with our local fisheries, with our local communities, our local economies. And we took it back to the council as part of a a little bit different take on it. So rather than arguing the resource we argued the social economics and we were successful the second time around, but it took another six years.

00:13:01:19 - 00:13:25:09
Linda Behnken
So it was a long process to, you know, push it back through the council system to build all that coalition and community support and then get it all the way through Washington, D.C. and implemented here in Alaska at the time, it was the largest trout closure in the world. So it really was a big suppresses precedent setting effort.

00:13:25:11 - 00:14:03:02
Mark Titus
That's incredible. And I've you've done so many things that I am so deeply impressed by. And but that is massive. I mean, it is a David and Goliath kind of thing when you're describing to me chains and large steel doors and gear that can house 740 sevens in that sounds to me like, you know, fishing with a sledgehammer versus and I think that's unfortunately what this film earlier this year Seaspiracy did was sort of lump everything all in together that if you're a fisherman, you are taking part in raping the sea.

00:14:03:04 - 00:14:22:03
Mark Titus
And that's just not true. And what it sounds like to me is that the type of fishing that coastal communities are involved in, certainly that you're involved in is more like fishing with a scalpel and and trying to be aware of the systems that you are a part of. Is that accurate?

00:14:22:04 - 00:15:05:09
Linda Behnken
Yeah, I think so. And I think if people the analogy it it's harder and it's easier for people to wrap their head around is small scale farming where people are raising a mix of different vegetables. They're probably bringing some animals in, they're using manure from the animals to fertilize the gardens. So it's a system that's self sustaining and in a lot of cases you can be rebuilding the health of your soil rather than depleting it versus, you know, a kind of farming that's miles and miles of monoculture where you have to kill all the pests with chemicals and that depletes the soil and poisons your water system so that there's ways to do farming, there's

00:15:05:09 - 00:15:35:13
Linda Behnken
ways to fish that support the ecosystem, that bring people into balance, and there's ways to not do it. And I think each ecosystem deserves and demands a level of understanding to be able to practice our extraction and our harvesting and our our growing in a way that is compatible with that health, the health of that particular ecosystem. And certainly that's going to change over time.

00:15:35:13 - 00:16:03:18
Linda Behnken
I mean, right now we're seeing the stress of climate change on salmon species. We see warming rivers and so fish are dying before they can spawn. So, you know, we have to be responsive to those changes. We also have to do something about climate change. But I think it just takes this sort of this humility to understand the systems and to recognize we have to work within their limits rather than impose our greed.

00:16:03:20 - 00:16:09:02
Linda Behnken
And you know, what's on the systems themselves.

00:16:09:04 - 00:16:32:17
Mark Titus
That's what I love about the article you wrote. And by the way, folks, we will be linking to that in our show notes and on the site. It's just a it is a piece of humility. It is also, I think, as you very adroitly put, that you are working in balance with natural systems. You have to have patience.

00:16:32:17 - 00:16:58:04
Mark Titus
You bear witness to these things. You do it day in and day out. And that's what I think sometimes folks don't understand. I've certainly learned as I've gone along, too, that, you know, it's the people that are the hunters and the fishermen and the folks on the ground every single day that have this vast source of data because they're there.

00:16:58:04 - 00:17:25:13
Mark Titus
You're there every day. So I definitely recommend folks check out the article that Linda wrote on our site. We're going to push forward a little bit here and I know what a genuinely humble person you are. And I also further know you wouldn't make a big deal about this. So I'm going to you won a Heinz Award for your life work in the environment.

00:17:25:15 - 00:17:58:02
Mark Titus
That's a really big deal. And here's what Teresa Heinz, chairman of the Heinz Family Foundation, said. Quote, Linda, success in achieving collaboration between scientists, industry and the fishermen who work the ocean for their livelihood is a model for effective environmental change. Her efforts to drive policy and practices to protect the stability of Alaska's coastal fishing communities and the ocean ecosystem on which they depend not only give us hope, they demonstrate what is possible when seemingly competing interests work together.

00:17:58:04 - 00:18:04:22
Mark Titus
What was it like when you got the call that you were to receive this award last year in 2020?

00:18:05:00 - 00:18:28:09
Linda Behnken
Well, of course my I was afraid they had the wrong number or they had the wrong person. I yeah, I was really shocked. I mean, I guess they had spent quite a while doing research. They always do. They vet everybody. But I had absolutely no idea. So people had really kept their kept their secrets that had been asked, you know, to be part of that fact checking.

00:18:28:09 - 00:19:16:20
Linda Behnken
So, yes, I was completely surprised. And definitely it was very humbling. Yeah. Just feeling like certainly there's a mistake here, but also super exciting to have that work recognized and to be able to have that sort of megaphone for small scale fishermen and talk about what the fishermen do that you know, that I work with. So they're they're involved not only in fisheries management but also in research and helping to create the tools that make their fishing practices better and better for the environment, as well as make them more successful at what they're doing, recognizing that those two cannot go together.

00:19:16:20 - 00:19:41:05
Linda Behnken
They aren't competing interests. They have to go together. If you're not keeping the resource healthy, you won't have a healthy fishery. So, I mean, I guess my sense is that award certainly isn't all about me. There's been I work with an amazing team of staff, coworkers, as well as fishermen who were deserve all the recognition.

00:19:41:07 - 00:20:06:23
Mark Titus
Well, let's be clear. You deserve a bunch. And I know you know, it comes with a beautiful beautiful as kind of a staggering price, $250,000. And what I know about you is that you're a re investor. I know that, first of all, that price has no strings attached. It's it's designed to continue. You enable you to continue to do the work that you're doing.

00:20:07:01 - 00:20:33:00
Mark Titus
But two thoughts here. Can you number one, tell me a little bit more about sort of this reinvestment idea once you really got things going, you know, with with the work, the main scale work that you're doing with Ala A and you also got involved in a trust and further education and further entry for young people into the world of fishing.

00:20:33:02 - 00:21:00:12
Mark Titus
So that first thought is, can you tell us a little bit more about reinvesting in the fishery itself? And then the second part is to Ms.. Hinds, a quote about you receiving this prize. You demonstrate what is possible when seemingly competing interests work together. So that'll be the second thought. We'll come to that in a second. But first, more on this on this reinvestment.

00:21:00:14 - 00:21:11:21
Mark Titus
Why do you feel like it's super important to continue forward with reinvesting in these initiatives that you are championing?

00:21:11:23 - 00:21:52:03
Linda Behnken
I think it's important on a number of levels, and I think about the indigenous wisdom of seventh generation and that everything we do, we have to think about how will this will affect seven generations from now. And if we're not restoring the health of the resource, safeguarding the health of resources, then there won't be the same abundance for that next generation or seven generations from now that we've had the you know, the wonder and the ability to enjoy and to sustain us and our families.

00:21:52:03 - 00:22:23:08
Linda Behnken
So I feel our responsibility applies to everyone on this planet, and it's something that feels very natural and gratifying to be giving back in that way. And I certainly the people I work with have fishermen, you know, share that they want a handout on the same healthy ocean off to their kids that they've enjoyed or their grandkids that they're on starting to enter the fisheries.

00:22:23:08 - 00:23:00:17
Linda Behnken
And so we've been able to involve fishermen in yeah, in the in research and in developing these tools to take care of the ocean. So improved stewardship of fisheries and oceans and get them working with scientists for the two sides and learn a lot from each other. And it's it's always a great conversation and they each recognize what each other bring to the table and let each other know and how they can collaborate in ways that that, you know, the two parts are better than as make a whole that's better than either part could be on its own.

00:23:00:17 - 00:23:21:16
Linda Behnken
So that's always been a big part of our work and a big part of the fishermen's work. But I also see how much more challenging it is now for young people to get into the fishery. Just the costs of entering fisheries are higher. The complexity of the management of the regulations, it's a bit daunting and you know, you have to generally have to borrow money.

00:23:21:16 - 00:23:50:18
Linda Behnken
You have to know how to run a business, you have to know hydraulics, you have to know mechanics, you have to be understand navigation and how to be safe at sea. And, you know, and then you also have to know how to catch fish to be able to be successful. So it's it's a lot. And, you know, when I got started, you could be it was easier to find that startup job and it was also a lot less expensive to get a little boat together and just go out and try it, you know, and learn as you went without a huge amount of debt.

00:23:50:20 - 00:24:31:11
Linda Behnken
So we've just we've started a lot of programs, including this Fisheries Trust, to help people make that first step without taking on helping to lower the risk and lowering that entry level cost by helping them by into the fisheries and mentoring them along the way. We have a crew apprentice program that, hey, people, get out on the water for the first time and work as crew on a commercial fishing boat and in an environment that we know is safe and really sort of focused on safety and learning while still being, you know, harvesting opportunity and just get their feet wet in that way and see if it's for them for one thing, but also support

00:24:31:11 - 00:25:02:08
Linda Behnken
them and then make sure it's safe and, you know, we've had 26, I think maybe 28 at this point, young women who have tried fishing in that way and yeah, I feel really good about providing that opportunity. But yeah, I did also take some of the money I won from the Hinds Foundation and invest it back into our Fisheries trust to help young fishermen as well as the work, our work to address climate change.

00:25:02:08 - 00:25:11:17
Linda Behnken
Because to me that's so critical to the future of the fishermen now, but particularly the young fishermen and what they they face in the future.

00:25:11:19 - 00:25:34:19
Mark Titus
Of course you did think you're awesome and you inspire me, and I'm sure you're inspiring a bunch of people that are listening to this right now. I wish you know, I wish there had been more visibility about things like this. When I was younger, I just sort of dumbly stumbled into the Bristol Bay processing world and you know, thought about getting into the fishery up there.

00:25:34:19 - 00:26:09:16
Mark Titus
But I had I was absolutely clueless and sort of completely daunted by it, you know, And it's just such a tremendous service to offer these kinds of skills and entry points, most importantly for young people. So good on you. Coming to the second point here, we are living in this very polarized moment in this country for sure, and it seems like it's impossible to get things done with any kind of consensus or with any kind of cooperation.

00:26:09:16 - 00:26:34:10
Mark Titus
So when you are looking at bringing together competing interests, what are the touch points that you're looking for? What are the really important things that you try to focus on to get things done where you know there's going to be friction and how do you try to bring everybody and ensure that they have a place at the table?

00:26:34:12 - 00:27:12:12
Linda Behnken
Well, I think part of it is recognizing everybody has a valid perspective. So being a good listener and validating that people do bring those different perspectives to the table and we all need to listen to that. But I think fishing is this great equalizer or great way of finding that middle ground between people because it isn't environmental group and it isn't a, you know, far right group.

00:27:12:12 - 00:27:36:03
Linda Behnken
It's it's a whole range of political interests who have shared common interests and making a living from the sea and wanting to be able to continue to do that. And so sometimes you have to help some people understand that it's valid to make a living working on the ocean and other people understand you want to have a future if you don't take care of the ocean.

00:27:36:03 - 00:28:14:20
Linda Behnken
So it's, you know, it's finding that middle ground, helping them realize that they really have the same shared interests. We we always talk about, you know, what's the common problem? We're all trying. Why are we here? You know what what are we trying to address? What do we see as as that as the challenge we're up against and making sure we can we all have the same we're all working towards the same goal by identifying what that common problem is and that everybody's willing to listen to each other and really hear each other and then work toward solving that problem that we've identified.

00:28:14:22 - 00:28:41:10
Linda Behnken
And, you know, I wouldn't say I'm I'm particularly good at doing any of that. It's just the you know, when you keep doing it long enough and you care enough sometimes to get it right, I guess. But yeah, I just find fishermen to generally be people who have care a lot, who've thought a lot. You know, you're out on the water having a lot of time to be thinking and paying attention to what's going on.

00:28:41:12 - 00:28:54:16
Linda Behnken
And if you give them room to voice their deepest what's in their heart, they're they're coming at it from the right place. And there's an opening there to work towards a better future.

00:28:54:18 - 00:29:15:07
Mark Titus
Well, I think you nailed it with the care about it piece. And, you know, that's kind of what this whole show is about, saving what you love. And we'll we'll dig specifically into that here toward the end of the show. But for a moment, I would like to dig even a little bit deeper in the work that you've done so far in southeast Alaska.

00:29:15:08 - 00:29:29:14
Mark Titus
And can you tell us a little bit about how innovation and technology have been a part of how you have approached conservation and a sustainable, thriving fishery?

00:29:29:16 - 00:30:03:06
Linda Behnken
Yeah, well, we, you know, again, say we have fishermen in our membership who are super tech savvy. And when when we started to look at what it takes to keep our fisheries viable, how we can make sure once we push trawling out of here, how do we be the best stewards of our area? So how do we address our own bycatch fisheries where we're catching, say, rockfish that are super long lived in a few overfishing, they're very slow to recover.

00:30:03:08 - 00:30:27:11
Linda Behnken
It became clear to us we needed to help fishermen work together to identify areas with high rockfish abundance so they could avoid them. And especially when a new fisherman comes in, you don't want them to stumble on to a reef and do any damage, lose gear or touch too many rockfish. So let's figure out how to have fishermen sharing information so they're informing each other and especially helping the young people come in.

00:30:27:11 - 00:30:52:03
Linda Behnken
So we started with a Rockfish Bycatch program where fishermen were reporting to us their their catch of their target and their bycatch. And then we're sharing that information, flagging for people, the hotspots. And at the same time, we we had fishermen who were starting to play with software, Noble tech time zero software that maps the seafloor as they're fishing.

00:30:52:05 - 00:31:20:20
Linda Behnken
And we saw the possibility to take the data for multiple fishermen just as we were with this logbook data and fishing information. Get that bathymetry data, compile it from multiple fishermen and give it back and help our fleet have the same level of of detail on what the seafloor looks like. As, you know, someone who's got a multimillion dollar sort of boat with sonars and fancier equipment than our fleet could afford.

00:31:20:22 - 00:31:52:09
Linda Behnken
So that's what we started. And at first the software crashed when we tried to put more than a few boats worth of data together because it's built for recreational boaters who use their boats a couple weekends a year, whereas our fleet is out there all but a couple weekends here and, you know, collecting millions of data points. But we worked with the noble tech people and they kept improving their software with our input and at this point, our fishermen, our members have the best seafloor maps anybody has.

00:31:52:09 - 00:32:18:13
Linda Behnken
We share them. Back now to the scientists when they're doing their stock assessment surveys to help them know what habitat they're fishing in and just informed the science. So it's been super positive and it's really helped our fishermen be more efficient at catching their target species, but also stay out of the the habitat. Rockfish, for example, are in rough bottom tentacles, sort of that rocky habitat.

00:32:18:15 - 00:32:32:03
Linda Behnken
And to be able to fish near that because they can pinpoint exactly where it is without setting through it and so really control their bycatch rates. So yeah, a win for the environment and certainly a win for the fishermen.

00:32:32:05 - 00:33:02:09
Mark Titus
I remember you showing me the charts when we were together in Sitka last and I'm a chart geek anyways, and man, I could sit and look at that thing for a week and there's a few images and a few thoughts that come to mind when you're talking about this. One is like a mycelial network where trees are connected and by fungal connectors where they're everything in the forest actually knows what's going on and they're actually helping each other there.

00:33:02:10 - 00:33:36:05
Mark Titus
You know, they're bringing sugar over to a tree that might be hurting over here or they're, you know, telling another tree over there that there's a beetle infestation that's on the way and I mean, for all the world, that's what this sounds like. You guys are on the ground every day. So why wouldn't you gather that data and then share it with the rest of your your fleet and everybody benefits, including the scientists who, you know, frankly, there's there's not as many of them out there as there are of your folks, your fishermen.

00:33:36:07 - 00:33:49:14
Mark Titus
So what a what a cool network that you've created with that. Are there other types of technology or other things that you've deployed that have helped out the fleet in a similar way?

00:33:49:16 - 00:34:19:11
Linda Behnken
Yeah. Well, I guess the other one would be electronic monitoring. So but, you know, part of the science of fisheries management is knowing how many fish in the sea, and the other part is knowing how many are taken out of the sea so that we're sustainably balancing those two. And our boats are quite small and there's really not room to have a scientist on board all the time or an observer recording what's being caught.

00:34:19:12 - 00:34:40:18
Linda Behnken
But the federal fishery managers decided they needed that data and they were going to try and require all boats to carry an observer, which really would have it would have cost career jobs. It would have it just would have been very unworkable for the small boat fleet, if it's like yet another way to break the back of the small boat fleet from our perspective.

00:34:40:18 - 00:35:03:18
Linda Behnken
So we worked mostly Dan Shalvey, who works with our group really hard tech, to develop electronic monitoring as a viable alternative for our fleet by, you know, finding grant money, working with software developers and, you know, just sort of saying there's room for a camera overhead but not an observer over underfoot. Like we need a technology that works for small boats.

00:35:03:18 - 00:35:25:12
Linda Behnken
We'll get you the data. You tell us what you need, we'll get you the data. But we have to do it in a way that's compatible with our fleet and the size of our boats, and that's been very successful. Now, boats can opt in to have electronic monitoring instead of an observer, and that really wouldn't have happened without our, you know, just pushing and pushing.

00:35:25:12 - 00:35:46:11
Linda Behnken
And also the support. Senator Murkowski was hugely supportive of the effort. She came down and looked at our boats and she said, I got it. You know, there's no room here to add another person and it's not viable to have someone sleep on the floor, not be able to sleep. And so she was various supportive of that. And our our efforts to move that through the system.

00:35:46:13 - 00:35:50:06
Mark Titus
And how's it been working, the electronic monitoring, the technology itself?

00:35:50:11 - 00:36:05:21
Linda Behnken
It works really well. I mean, it was a curve, right? Like at first the had too many exposed wires and things shorted out. The marine environment is pretty hard on electronic X, but at this point, yeah, our systems are working really well very reliably.

00:36:05:23 - 00:36:37:22
Mark Titus
That's that's fantastic. And I've been on your boat and yeah, it's hard to imagine carrying a totally autonomous extra crew member, you know, there's just not a lot of room to cook or eat or, you know, all the, all the things. So super innovative. Let's move on a little bit here. We are both involved in this idea. It's developing into a network called Salmon Nation.

00:36:38:00 - 00:36:50:08
Mark Titus
In your words, can you tell me and tell us a little about what you perceive it to be and why you're part of it? Because you're a big part of it.

00:36:50:10 - 00:37:19:23
Linda Behnken
So to me, Salmon Nation is that change that the world needs. It's that recognizing that we are part of natural systems, that we have to rebalance ourselves within those natural systems and that there is a way to do that that will keep the salmon healthy or keep the forest healthy, if that will keep the climate healthy and will keep us healthy as people.

00:37:19:23 - 00:38:00:11
Linda Behnken
And that has to be done in a way that it's informed by Indigenous wisdom of stewardship and connection that respects those people who are non-Indigenous, who have also found that path and are living that path and doing in a way that meets the goals of the seventh generation and keeping the planet and the system and the people. Seven generations from now to have the same opportunities and health and beauty that surrounds us here and to me, Salmon Nation gives me hope that we can get there.

00:38:00:11 - 00:38:33:21
Linda Behnken
It's connected me to other people who who can articulate all of that far better than me and who are living it so deeply, whether they're on the ocean or on a ranch or on a farm or running a grocery store in a food desert. I mean, you know, it's from urban to very rural settings and supporting each other with ideas with we can do this sort of, you know, love and moral support and where, you know, one of us stubs our toe against an obstacle.

00:38:33:21 - 00:38:56:02
Linda Behnken
There's someone who can help you figure out how to get around it. If you don't have the technical skills or you don't know enough about this, there's somebody in the network and said, I can help you there and I'll connect you with this person. If I don't know, but I know this person does. So it's it's powerful and it's sustaining me and really inspiring me.

00:38:56:04 - 00:39:19:20
Mark Titus
Yeah. And it comes back to that idea of that network like we were talking about a minute ago with forest or Mycelial network just this last week. So Monday was was my birthday. We were up in Homer and my wife and I and we got to spend seven days out in Bristol Bay and then down on the Kenai Peninsula.

00:39:19:20 - 00:39:41:15
Mark Titus
And it was absolutely magical and just sort of, you know, I've been spending most of my adult life, at least a part of the year in Alaska. And every time I fall harder in love with it and did did so yet again on the way home, you know, you're going over these vast mountain ranges and these beautiful islands.

00:39:41:15 - 00:40:12:23
Mark Titus
And, you know, there was a time where I would feel, I don't know, almost kind of sad about, well, gosh, I'll never see it all or I'll never be able to experience at all or I'll never be a part of it somehow. And to your point about Salmon Nation, like I feel now, I have hope and I feel connected in a way that I never have before, knowing that whether I'm in British Columbia or Bristol Bay or Northern California, we are all connected.

00:40:13:05 - 00:40:40:20
Mark Titus
This kind of heart force. Yep. Of of love for these creatures that give up their lives so that that life can continue. The salmon. And the thing that defines us is more about this nature state rather than these other kind of invisible created boundaries that have been wished on us. So I agree with you. And it's, you know, let's see how things evolve.

00:40:40:22 - 00:41:10:04
Mark Titus
But what a what a hopeful way to to live and connect with other people. I know that one of the issues that is prevalent now is and is going to be even more so in the coming days is the 30 by 30. And maybe what you could do for us is give us sort of your understanding of the broad definition of of this ambition.

00:41:10:06 - 00:41:24:01
Mark Titus
And then we dig a little bit into the nuance of how that maybe is not a one size fits all solution for fisheries, especially in coastal communities.

00:41:24:03 - 00:41:45:21
Linda Behnken
Well, I think you set that up perfectly with what you're saying about looking out at this vast area. And there, you know, sort of how it gets you in the heart and wanting not knowing how you take it all in and connect with all of it and make sure across all these boundaries that we are taking care of it from mountains to oceans.

00:41:45:21 - 00:42:05:08
Linda Behnken
And to me, that's really the possibility of 30 by 30. And to me, 30 by 30 is at the heart and soul of what Salmon Nation is all about. And when it was first introduced, it was introduced with the idea that we had to protect 30% of the oceans in lands, lands and waters, I think is how it's worded.

00:42:05:08 - 00:42:43:09
Linda Behnken
But, you know, almost protect it from humans so that we needed to set this aside as because that's the only way we're going to address climate change and that we're going to preserve biodiversity. And, you know, I get it. Humans have a huge footprint on this earth, and I'm all for having places where we lessen that footprint and allow other creatures to not be under our you know, he'll but I think more importantly, it's an as 30 by 30 evolved through input and the eventual executive order that came out of President Biden's administration.

00:42:43:10 - 00:43:25:12
Linda Behnken
It's now much more about recognizing that we need to learn to live within planetary boundaries, in how we live, how we harvest, how we fish, how we farm, and that while we're addressing climate change and while we're protecting biodiversity, we also have to be supporting local economies, respecting social justice and people's connection to place that extend far beyond the life of this country and find a new way for us to live on this planet that maintains that health of the planet while also maintaining our own health.

00:43:25:12 - 00:44:04:23
Linda Behnken
Its it's finding our place in the in that circle of life and you know there's I know there's people who still think 30 by 30 is about marine protected areas and and kicking people out of those areas. But I see so much possibility to learn from the people who are practicing regenerative agriculture, restorative farming, sustainable fishing. All the people I've been learning from in the Salmon Nation network and amplify that grow that change the practices that aren't sustainable, to be sustainable and to feed biodiversity while we're addressing climate change.

00:44:05:01 - 00:44:43:04
Linda Behnken
So I'm really excited now about the possibilities. We we have started this Businesses for Conservation and Climate Alliance that I think can really be at the heart of driving that change and recognizing that it's not, you know, business or the environment. They have to come together and I just find the people and insemination are they're the leaders, you know, they're the people that are informing my evolving thinking on what we can make of this 30 by 30 and how it really does fulfill promise of of what's at the heart of Salmon Nation.

00:44:43:05 - 00:45:00:12
Mark Titus
So for for those of us out here who don't have a complete grasp on, what, 30 by 30 years, could you just give us a Reader's Digest encapsulated version of what this proposal is? And then where we are at right now with that?

00:45:00:14 - 00:45:31:14
Linda Behnken
Sure. Yeah. So the the concept of protecting or conserving 30 to 50% of lands and waters has been part of international conversation for a while. And it was really introduced in this country last summer as part of a bill that used the word protect, talked about excluding commercial extraction and other destructive uses from 30% of in this case it was specific to waters, but by 2030.

00:45:31:14 - 00:46:16:14
Linda Behnken
So that's the 30 by 30. And then after a whole lot of communication and input from people all across the country into what 30 by 30 could be and should be an executive order came out January 27. So it's 14 008 that came out from the Biden administration, called the America the Beautiful report. If you haven't read it, you should because it's unlike any other federal report you've ever seen or imagined where the language acknowledges how this sort of colonial approach we've had to this country and to native people of this country, and how how fundamental that change needs to be and our approach to place.

00:46:16:14 - 00:47:00:12
Linda Behnken
And each other to have a sustainable relationship with our planet and sets out principles that include biodiversity and and controlling climate change, but also maintaining local economies and and respecting social justice, as well as environmental justice. So it it opens up the possibility for a new path. It doesn't mandate doesn't create new statutory authority is it just opens up the possibilities to think about, think about what's work, what needs to change, and for communities and and and communities of of communities to come together and say, here's what we need.

00:47:00:12 - 00:47:26:16
Linda Behnken
And it allows us to think outside of those boundaries you were talking about earlier, the the the sort of superimpose those boundaries from from management authorities, state, federal, regional, you know, this country, that country to just think about ecosystems and, how we start to take care of ecosystems in their whole. So salmon to me are the are the best illustrations.

00:47:26:16 - 00:47:49:05
Linda Behnken
Salmon need healthy oceans. He also needs healthy mountain streams and everything in between. So to to trans transcend those jurisdictional boundaries, to think big and to think at different levels about what conservation means and what our place in that needs to be.

00:47:49:07 - 00:48:11:21
Mark Titus
You and salmon don't know. Nor do they give a shit whether they're in Canadian or American waters. Right. It's they're they're concerned about cold, clean, healthy waters and bringing life back to those. What's what can folks do to what can we do to get involved? I mean, you just is it sort of a wait and see kind of thing?

00:48:11:21 - 00:48:18:05
Mark Titus
Are we are we can we take any kind of action at this point? What's the current status of things?

00:48:18:07 - 00:48:47:12
Linda Behnken
absolutely. Take action. So our I know the Businesses for Conservation and Climate Alliance, we have provided the administration and people at it. So all the different whether it's the Department of Interior, know all the different departments that are part of the federal government are being tasked to work together to accomplish these 30 by 30 goals. And we are have been sharing initiatives that we consider fully ripe for action.

00:48:47:12 - 00:49:25:18
Linda Behnken
So the Tongass, for example, reinstating the roadless rule, step number one, making sure we're restoring where there's culverts that have failed, that are blocking a salmon passage, taking care of that, working with tribes to improve the the engagement of indigenous people and collecting data and stewarding resources near their towns, figuring out ways that those communities can be more engaged in harvesting locally, maintaining local economies while sustaining the health of the environment that supports them, learning from their long term stewardship of resources.

00:49:25:20 - 00:49:59:08
Linda Behnken
So the Tongass is one of our first big focuses. Lots of opportunity for people to participate as that. There'll be a reopening of a public comment period, for example, on the road. This role, Bristol Bay is the other huge one that we are calling for long term protection of Bristol Bay and and you know, no mine that can operate there without, you know, an unacceptable level of threat to this incredible salmon ecosystem of Bristol Bay.

00:49:59:08 - 00:50:48:22
Linda Behnken
And then working also in the off islands and where in the Bering Sea where indigenous people have a long term history of stewardship but are also seeing their opportunities curtailed. So there there are places people can get involved federally, but also if there's a place locally to salmon, whether they're in the West Coast or elsewhere, that they care about, that they love, that they want to save, there's opportunities to start to identify what's appropriate and management in that place, what's not appropriate, and how to start to build support behind management that that allows those uses that are compatible with people's goals for biodiversity, for healthy economies, all the principles of the America, the beautiful act

00:50:49:00 - 00:51:09:04
Linda Behnken
and how to exclude those that are not or change, those are not. And with our businesses for conservation climate action, what we're looking to do is help, you know, sort of bring together those communities that have ideas, help support them, convene the conveners, and then take that policy up through the to the highest level and work towards implementation.

00:51:09:04 - 00:51:24:18
Linda Behnken
But really, it has to be a bottom up approach. It has to be communities saying we have coalitions of people, as you have in Bristol Bay, you know, as we've had here in the jungles, and we need this you know, we need this done or we need this to happen or this cannot happen. This is what we want.

00:51:24:18 - 00:51:30:21
Linda Behnken
And then we want to support those communities and helping enact that.

00:51:30:23 - 00:51:59:22
Mark Titus
So community economy, businesses, seven generations, these are themes that I'm hearing and will, we're going to dig right into those and especially the community part in one second. But for those of us who in our audience who aren't familiar with the Tongass, that Tongass is referring to the Targets National Forest in southeast Alaska, it's the largest contiguous temperate rainforest left on Earth.

00:52:00:00 - 00:52:32:09
Mark Titus
And I highly recommend listening to the episode of this podcast with Richard Petersen talking about just what a special place that is, but coming right right down to the community aspect. One of the things that I read about and have talked to other people firsthand about the work you're doing, it just it's darn near it brought me to tears and it was just this this thing that you've created called Alaskan zones.

00:52:32:10 - 00:53:06:08
Mark Titus
And, you know, it's gobsmacking to me that in the most prosperous nation the world has ever known, that there are people hungry every single night, there are children hungry every single day, and especially those that, you know, have not benefited from this colonial economy that's been built. Can you speak to us about what your vision for Alaskan Zone is and what your reach is and where you're hoping to go with it?

00:53:06:09 - 00:53:32:07
Linda Behnken
Sure. Yeah. So Alaskans own grew out of, you know, learning that less than 1% of the fish caught off Alaska stays in Alaska and hearing from people here in Sitka and all around the state that, you know, how do I get good Alaska fish? I don't feel like I have access. And just being so surprised that it was so, you know, people are buying imitation crab in the store instead of Alaska salmon or halibut.

00:53:32:07 - 00:53:57:10
Linda Behnken
So we started a community supported fisheries program very, you know, built on the community supported agriculture model. It was the first one in Alaska where people can buy a subscription and get fish from us each month. We also then broadened to ship around the country because we, you know, sort of coordinating with in Alaska was something that was in our reach, starting to coordinate that kind of CFO subscription outside of Alaska was more difficult.

00:53:57:10 - 00:54:21:13
Linda Behnken
But we can ship anywhere and we are, you know, but our fish is coming from local fishermen, members of our organization. We know their commitment to keeping the resource healthy, to harvesting the highest quality, you know, taking extra care of the fish as well of the resource and getting that to people along with information about how the fish was caught.

00:54:21:17 - 00:54:38:13
Linda Behnken
And also some of the issues that are out there, say, the Tongass and how they could weigh in on that, where they might want to go to submit comments. And if all they want is to make sure they get the best possible fish that's sustainably harvested and some good recipes and stories about them fishermen, they can go just that far.

00:54:38:13 - 00:55:11:18
Linda Behnken
And that's that's great by us. But if they want to take that next step and get involved with protecting Bristol Bay or making sure the Tanga stays, stays healthy and unrooted, that we help them, people have those opportunities and know how to how to be effective and find their voice in that way. And then last year with the pandemic, we had the opportunity to really engage and getting salmon doing big distributions of fish to people all around the country and also in the Pacific Northwest.

00:55:11:18 - 00:55:45:04
Linda Behnken
So where there was need, we were able to distribute salmon for free, sometimes round so whole fish so people could engage in traditional processing of that fish and sometimes filets depending on what we're able to define. So to support the fishermen and to provide the fish to families in need. And we're looking to find funding. We're hoping we can move USDA programs, for example, towards local and regional food distribution to support local economies as well.

00:55:45:04 - 00:56:07:18
Linda Behnken
So meeting need and do that in the long term because people were so appreciative of receiving food that was culturally appropriate. It and yeah just that they relish as part of this this region and that they're they have such a history and connection to so that's also part of our long term vision for Alaskans.

00:56:07:18 - 00:56:15:04
Mark Titus
And it's beautiful. I think I read like 400,000 meals distributed with.

00:56:15:06 - 00:56:20:11
Linda Behnken
We actually had 600,000 by the end of first part of this year. Yeah.

00:56:20:13 - 00:56:58:17
Mark Titus
Wow. Wow. I know Ben Blake. He was a part of that. And Northland Seafoods and yeah, like I said, I mean, I just was so emotionally moved by by this work. And I know that's that's been the impetus of what we've tried to do with Dave Wild, too, is just bring awareness to Bristol Bay and then, you know, a dedicated percentage money back to the region with with purchasing the food from the region and then also like kind of taking it as sacrament, like it's great you're experiencing this region by taking these salmon into your body.

00:56:58:17 - 00:57:09:15
Mark Titus
They literally are part of the region. So I'm just, you know, utterly thrilled about it. I can't wait to find ways to collaborate and and build this even bigger and stronger.

00:57:09:17 - 00:58:04:08
Linda Behnken
Yeah. No, it's I guess I just am endlessly amazed by the the natural world and the complexity of the natural world. And, you know, you were talking before about trees and the mycelium and how they know to send sugar or more sugar to this place. And I feel like we understand one iota of that complexity and yet our footprint is so huge on it and that to the extent we can start to learn more about those systems, start to feed ourselves with the local foods and local wisdom, we can start to understand how we sustain these systems and how we are more than, you know, the bull in a china shop sort of in our

00:58:04:08 - 00:58:32:06
Linda Behnken
impact on this planet. And yeah, I see the work of the coalitions in Bristol Bay and the coalitions here and on the Tongass, you know, Bering Sea off island people, what you're doing with Eve as well as Wild, it's it's all a part of that. You know, as is Alaskan zone it's helping people hear the stories, understand that that complexity exists and that these salmon are sacred.

00:58:32:06 - 00:58:46:21
Linda Behnken
And what the salmon need to keep coming back and giving us life, as you know, we need to give them life. So, yeah, it's a big challenge. It's a lot. But it so we needed.

00:58:46:23 - 00:59:07:18
Mark Titus
It is big and that you're you're reading my mind. That's exactly where I was going to start wrapping a sub Here was it seems overwhelming if you're just looking at the entirety of things. I mean, it's like walking into I just did this walking into a storage facility and, you know, you got to get it cleaned up because there's stuff in the back you got to get to.

00:59:07:20 - 00:59:29:04
Mark Titus
And it's just like, where do I even put all this crap? You know, It's like, it's just daunting. What is the best advice you can give young people or anybody really starting out who wants to make a difference in saving what they love? Where would you tell them to begin?

00:59:29:06 - 00:59:52:14
Linda Behnken
I would begin where your heart is. You know, that place that you're passionate about. And it can be a city lot and you can transform that city lot into a garden that feeds people. Or it could be, you know, a big mountain range that you're passionate about. But but I think it has to be something that your heart is really invested in.

00:59:52:16 - 01:00:07:13
Linda Behnken
And then you need to listen. You need to learn from the system itself, from the place itself, and from the people who have older and more tested wisdom about how you are steward and caretaker for that place.

01:00:07:15 - 01:00:31:22
Mark Titus
That's perfect. I couldn't add one more thing. Okay, So we're going to wrap this up with a quick bonus round here. And if you've been listening to this show, you know that there's a series of three quick questions, but they think they tell a lot about how you operate in this world. So here they go. Just say, knock on wood, it's not going to happen.

01:00:31:22 - 01:00:40:13
Mark Titus
But just if your house was on fire and you could get your family out, get pets out. But if you can only take one physical thing, what would that thing be?

01:00:40:15 - 01:00:57:22
Linda Behnken
One physical thing. And maybe my plants, you know, the living things. I feel like the living things are what matter, right? And what you need to take with you.

01:00:58:00 - 01:01:25:17
Mark Titus
That's so awesome. I mean, this is so synergistic, this conversation, because, I mean, I'm reading this book, The Hidden Life of Trees, and you pick it up. You know, if you haven't out there, it's it's fantastic. You'll never look at another tree again. And that's why I keep talking about it. But I was looking around our living room last night, and I was looking at all the plants and I was like, I think I understand now why people talk to plants, You know, there's something happened in there.

01:01:25:19 - 01:01:41:23
Mark Titus
And so I think that's a wonderful answer. Okay. Now more on a sort of metaphysical level here. Two traits that you could pull out of the fire about you that make you you if you can only take two.

01:01:42:01 - 01:01:48:14
Linda Behnken
I don't give up easy. And I'm very grateful that.

01:01:48:16 - 01:02:00:00
Mark Titus
Those are both self-evident. And lastly, is there anything that you would leave in the fire to be burned up or purified?

01:02:00:02 - 01:02:24:18
Linda Behnken
boy. A lot. I can you know, I can forget to listen. I can talk too much. That would be the first one. Yeah. And Just, you know, the overwhelming urge to think or belief that you know more than you do. I think that's what I would give up. And that's what I have to work at all the time.

01:02:24:18 - 01:02:31:12
Linda Behnken
And that's what I keep learning more and more how little I know. I guess so, yeah. More work to be done there.

01:02:31:14 - 01:02:36:12
Mark Titus
Amen. I boy, I struggle all the time with that. Keep it. Keep it down here.

01:02:36:15 - 01:02:37:07
Linda Behnken
Yeah.

01:02:37:09 - 01:03:08:10
Mark Titus
You fucking saboteur ambulance to your fantastic friend and conversationalist. And I'm so glad we had a chance to connect today. I can't wait. We get to hang out again in Sitka or down here, for that matter. We're. We're all in Salmon Nation, and, you know, it's all kind of connected. So for, for today's or anything else you wanted to leave us with or is there a way that folks can check out the work you're doing?

01:03:08:12 - 01:03:34:14
Linda Behnken
Well, first off, thank you. It's been wonderful to talk to you. And I really look forward to bringing all our Salmon Nation people back together again, too. But I guess if people want to learn more about our work, we have, I think, some great information on our website. So our Alaska Longline Fishermen's Association, you can Google that and find it or Alaska Sustainable Fisheries Trust, the Alaska Trust that org Alaskans own.

01:03:34:14 - 01:03:57:16
Linda Behnken
You can also find online and you know, we always are looking for new subscribers to our communities for fisheries program or people to place orders with us, but even more so people to get involved and help Safeway say what they love and help us save what we love.

01:03:57:18 - 01:04:03:20
Mark Titus
Amen to that. Linda Bank and thank you for joining us today and we will see you down the trail.

01:04:03:22 - 01:04:06:00
Linda Behnken
Thank you, Mark.

01:04:06:02 - 01:04:16:02
Music
How do you save what you love?
How do you save what you love?

01:04:21:01 - 01:04:47:00
Mark Titus
Thank you for listening to Save What You Love. If you like what you're hearing, you can help keep these conversations coming your way by giving us a rating on Apple Podcasts. You can check out photos and links from this episode at evaswild.com. While there, you can join our growing community by subscribing to our newsletter, you'll get exclusive offers on wild salmon shipped to your door and notifications about upcoming guests and more great content on the way.

01:04:47:02 - 01:05:25:14
Mark Titus
That's at evaswild.com. That's the word Save spelled backwards Wild dot com. This episode was produced by Tyler White and edited by Patrick Troll. Original music was created by Whiskey Class. This podcast is a collaboration between Ava's Wild Stories and Salmon Nation and was recorded on the homelands of the Duwamish. People. We'd like to recognize these lands and waters and their significance for the people who lived and continued to live in this region whose practices and spiritualities were and are tied to the land in the water, and whose lives continue to enrich and develop in relationship to the land waters and other inhabitants today.