Save What You Love with Mark Titus

00:00:00:02 - 00:00:28:00
Mark Titus
Welcome to the Save What You Love podcast. I'm your host, Mark Titus. Did you know that between the years of 1910 and 1970, African-Americans lost about 90% of their farmland. And in New York State, out of 67,000 farmers, only 139 are black. Today's incredible conversation is with Olivia Watkins, the president of Black Farmers Fund. Olivia was named to Forbes magazine's 30 under 30 in 2020.

00:00:28:01 - 00:00:47:04
Mark Titus
She is an activist. She's a scholar and she's a woman of the land. And we get into all of that in today's show. I can't wait for you to hear it. Also, if you are looking to take action for Bristol Bay, it is time to let the EPA know that they need to veto the proposed Pebble Mine once and for all.

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Mark Titus
You can head on over to evaswild.com and forward slash action to take action right now. That's the word save spelled backwards. Wild dot com forward slash action to take action. And if you're digging this podcast, consider giving us a rating on Apple Podcasts and writing a review in your own words. It really helps get our visibility out into the world.

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Mark Titus
Thanks so much. Enjoy this incredible conversation with Olivia Watkins and we'll see you down the trail.

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Music
How do you save what you love?
When the world is burning down?
How do you save what you love?
When pushes come to shove.
How do you say what you love?
When things are upside down.
How do you say what you love?
When times are getting tough.

00:01:51:13 - 00:01:56:10
Mark Titus
Olivia Watkins, welcome. Where are you coming to us from today?

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Olivia Watkins
Thank you so much for having me today. Right now, I'm in North Carolina, right outside of Raleigh.

00:02:03:13 - 00:02:31:13
Mark Titus
Outstanding. My my best friend from college, Terry Gilday, is program director for WNC. And I'm sure you know that radio station. And I'm very proud of him. And I'm hoping that you guys cross paths here one of these days. Hey, let's dive right into this. You have such a and empowering and fascinating story. Can you tell us your story?

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Mark Titus
How did you come into this work that you do and where are you from? And give us give us your background.

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Olivia Watkins
Yeah, absolutely. So I was born in actually Seattle, Washington, and yeah, at Swedish hospital.

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Mark Titus
Well.

00:02:48:11 - 00:03:26:02
Olivia Watkins
I only lived there for two years. Most of my family is on the eastern seaboard and Caribbean, so my parents definitely realized that having family around was important. So they moved back and I was raised in New York and I grew up in a family that was very heavy into the science fields. And so a lot of my studies were focused on biology, anatomy, physiology and high school.

00:03:26:04 - 00:03:53:07
Olivia Watkins
And when I came to college, I thought that I had wanted to be a doctor. And that was a very big wake up call in terms of just how rigorous that programing was. And yeah, I didn't like most of the classes and I wanted to do classes and study things that I was really passionate about. And so I tried out a bunch of different classes and ended up really loving my plant biology classes.

00:03:53:07 - 00:04:41:07
Olivia Watkins
So my major was environmental biology and I was really fascinated with plants and the way that they interact with the environment and the soil. And for my senior research, I studied the effects on different types of agriculture on soil health. So that was kind of my first foray into farming and agriculture. And and as I was leaving college, I realized that I would rather spend my time outside on farms doing farm work with farmers than inside in a sterile laboratory analyzing some of the microbiology that I was looking at.

00:04:41:07 - 00:05:25:17
Olivia Watkins
So that's when I started working on farms, and I had the privilege to do a lot of traveling and work on farms internationally and nationally. I worked on farms in South Korea and New Zealand, in Hawaii and in New York and with all of those different experiences that were incredibly enriching, I realized that there was more than just the biology, environmental aspects of why certain people in certain parts of the country and the world were able to get access to different quality of food.

00:05:25:19 - 00:06:39:11
Olivia Watkins
And it wasn't just about the environment. There were also socio economic and political reasons as to why. And so that's how I started getting involved into more organizing work and advocacy work and just really trying to kind of bring together those different pieces that, you know, ultimately dictate access and in terms of how I got to the work that I currently do now, I, I met one of my co-founders at a farming conference, and we were discussing how lack of access to capital can ultimately also influence, you know, what parts of our country and what communities are able to create food systems that are able to generate high quality produce with healthy soil at reasonable

00:06:39:11 - 00:06:43:08
Olivia Watkins
prices.

00:06:43:10 - 00:07:13:16
Mark Titus
That's fantastic. And I have, of course, ignited like ten other questions and planned on. But just to kind of hover on this beat for a moment, was there any particular person or event or kind of watershed moment where the light turned on for you? You know, you kind of had that discernment time between med school and and then finding your way, but were there other moments along the way that kind of helped illuminate your path for you?

00:07:13:18 - 00:08:02:18
Olivia Watkins
Yeah. So I actually was in med school. It was pre-med. And in my undergrad, but I think one of the moments for me was when I had was there was a stark difference between working on farms where there was so strictly kind of economic component, an economic outcome versus farms that and these are also two farms that are in the regenerative versus sustainable agricultural space than farms that had a social component to them.

00:08:02:23 - 00:08:31:22
Olivia Watkins
And most notably, I worked on a farm in Hawaii that was a sustainable regenerative farm. And every month we would have meetings with a grassroots community organization called Hawai'i Farmers Union. And so we would gather all these different farmers in our area to come and learn from one another, break bread and talk about some of the different challenges that we have faced.

00:08:32:00 - 00:08:57:11
Olivia Watkins
And so for me, you know, that experience of not only being a farmer, but also having a community of other farmers around me to connect with really was so much more fulfilling than just, you know, working on a farm and just focusing on the economic outcomes. Yeah, So that was definitely that moment for me.

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Mark Titus
I don't know why, but I was maybe just because it's Hawaii I was that was resonating with me. Was that on the Big Island or was it which island was that on?

00:09:05:18 - 00:09:07:11
Olivia Watkins
This is on Oahu, Iowa.

00:09:07:17 - 00:09:14:05
Mark Titus
Cool. Yeah. Good place to be farming. I would imagine was great. And yeah.

00:09:14:07 - 00:09:39:20
Olivia Watkins
It was a great place to be farming. And you know, as someone who comes from a community that, you know, I'm not in touch with my indigenous culture, it was really powerful to see a group of people that still are on the land that they had been on for centuries and were still connected to their language and their culture.

00:09:39:22 - 00:09:47:15
Olivia Watkins
And that was extremely empowering for me as someone who never had that access.

00:09:47:17 - 00:10:36:11
Mark Titus
Yeah, I can imagine, and I've had a taste of that here recently myself. My work has been well in the last ten years really, around salmon in Bristol Bay. And just about ten days ago my wife and I were able to come up and visit a culture camp up in IG and in a it's a small community in Bristol Bay and it had three of the traditional folks, elders that came from different backgrounds from the DNA and the allude to and Yup'ik people and they celebrated with food and community and song and we got to be a part of that and it was almost overwhelming how powerful it was to see that continuity.

00:10:36:16 - 00:11:11:03
Mark Titus
And so I absolutely that that idea of being on land and continuity of people resonates hugely with me as well. Well, I would love to get into the the deuce. Here you are. I've learned so much already, just doing research on you and following you on social. So I can't wait to dig into this stuff. But according to ProPublica, between 1910 and 1997, African-Americans lost about 90% of their farmland.

00:11:11:05 - 00:11:26:20
Mark Titus
And in New York State, out of 67,000 farmers, only 139 are black. That blew my mind. Can you tell us what the Black Farmer Fund is and how it addresses this disparity?

00:11:26:22 - 00:12:25:00
Olivia Watkins
Yeah. So Black Farmer Fund, we were created out of a conversation, as I was mentioning earlier, about lack of access to capital. And this was also around the time when the class action lawsuit of Pigford versus Glickman was getting a lot of publicity and a lot of the farmers that were receiving, you know, reparations from that were meeting together and getting those distributions and, you know, there was an awareness that there was something that happened right between kind of, you know, Emancipation Proclamation and when formerly enslaved people were able to purchase land and own land and farm for themselves and make income.

00:12:25:02 - 00:13:03:11
Olivia Watkins
And today and you know, that that lawsuit was very monumental in providing tangible evidence to show some of the racial discrimination that has happened in financial institutions that are have been created to serve farmers. And so we decided that we were going to create a financial institution that was a a institution that black farmers could trust and depend on for support for their businesses.

00:13:03:13 - 00:13:33:10
Mark Titus
Wow. That's a pretty big goal, being a person under 30. And Mike mentioned the little detail that you were named on. Forbes 2021, 30 under 30 in the impact realm, and deservedly so. So could you dig in a little bit more for us what the structure is with Black Farmer Fund and how does it work? Is it a bank?

00:13:33:10 - 00:13:36:20
Mark Titus
Is it like how does it how does it work? How do people get involved?

00:13:36:22 - 00:14:05:10
Olivia Watkins
Yeah, So we are a512, three nonprofit community investment fund. And what that basically means is that we are able to not only provide access to capital, but also programing to support that capital and to support some of the community and relationship building they have that I had mentioned earlier that I thought was so monumental to really being able to create strong, resilient food systems.

00:14:05:12 - 00:15:03:21
Olivia Watkins
So we have a couple of different areas of focus. Our focus is obviously investing so we provide integrated capital, meaning that in grants to farmers and we also focus on empowerment through either skill shares and also through opportunities for farmers and food businesses to participate in our investment allocation decisions and also just general relationship building. We also are involved in a lot of organized work, so we are members of National Black Food and Justice Alliance and Black Farmers United in New York State that are some of the more major political organizations that are advocating for policy and legislation and gathering black farmers and food businesses across the country.

00:15:03:23 - 00:15:46:00
Olivia Watkins
And we are also a part of a smaller coalition called the Eco System, where there are four other different bipoc led organizations where we come together to serve different parts of the food system of the Northeast. So again, like the the financial piece is a is a big part of what we do. And we realize that financing is just only one part of being able to make sure that as we finance and fund some of these businesses, that there is a network and support, a network of support and a community of support.

00:15:46:00 - 00:16:03:16
Olivia Watkins
And we are allowing folks to connect and engage in business to business, to business relationships and really actually focusing on developing our regional local food system rather than just individually, you know, investing in people here and there.

00:16:03:18 - 00:16:05:19
Mark Titus
How's it going?

00:16:05:20 - 00:16:55:12
Olivia Watkins
It's going really well. We started officially and corporate in 2019 and we received our first funding in for our operations in 2020. And since then we have a total of five full time staff and we work with different contractors as well. And we have raised approximately $1,000,000 and our pilot fund. Thank you. And we also have, you know, raised enough money and general operating support to be able to carry us for a long time as we continue to steward steward this mission.

00:16:55:14 - 00:17:23:19
Mark Titus
Congratulations. I'm inspired by the minute here. And before moving on to the next realm here that I've got lined up for us, I want to stay with kind of where where things were. What are some examples of exploitative and extractive capital that has been the status quo for farmers and especially bipoc farmers. You know, what have you what have you been up against?

00:17:23:19 - 00:17:31:23
Mark Titus
What's the challenge? And then what do you see is the way forward with investment in our food providers?

00:17:32:01 - 00:18:25:21
Olivia Watkins
Yeah. So some of the challenges that there are that a lot of organizations are working on are particularly in the policy space, because a lot of farmers can access funding from organizations like USDA and because there was a pigford V Glickman case. A lot of organizations are working around making sure that there are budget line items for farmers, particularly black farmers and bipoc farmers, and also some of the other things that we're seeing as well that are trouble that that are difficult for our farmers are the requirements that traditional financial institutions or government institutions have for farmers.

00:18:25:21 - 00:19:01:02
Olivia Watkins
So for instance, we have farmers who have student debt, right? And so that affects people's credit scores. And we have you know, there are farmers who are undocumented and as a result aren't able to get financing. And we also have there's a requirement with the USDA, some USDA funding and also some state funding in terms of eligibility, where a farmer has to have three years of a schedule S with receipts.

00:19:01:02 - 00:19:31:13
Olivia Watkins
And so a lot of our farmers, you know, don't claim farming as their main income because they are they have other sources of income because of the racial wealth gap that has existed. Right. So a lot of the farmers that we work with are coming from situations where, you know, they are getting passed down land that they're grandfather had paid off and where they already have all of the farming equipment.

00:19:31:16 - 00:20:19:15
Olivia Watkins
And it's just a matter of continuing that legacy. So a lot of the folks that we're working with are starting from scratch in many ways. And there are very few programs that exist to be able to support them at that stage. So our target focus is really on, you know, farmers who have been farming for a while and are looking to get their own farm but don't have the qualifications that traditional institutions would consider them to be, you know, a a safe bet for farmers that are established and for whatever reason, they have had trouble accessing financing that is reasonable.

00:20:19:15 - 00:20:36:10
Olivia Watkins
So we work with our farmers in the underwriting process and they're extremely involved in that. And when I was asking one of our farmers like, okay, what is your ideal interest rate, they were like, Honestly, anything below 12%.

00:20:36:12 - 00:21:29:22
Olivia Watkins
So and this is someone who has been around for a very long time, right? But every single time he came across, you know, applying for financing, people were offering him 12%. Right. So, you know, those are some of the things that we are seeing. And we are basically trying to, you know, fill this gap that currently exists in financing a especially for, you know, some of the smaller farms that are instrumental to the communities that they serve and that they exist in, whether or not it's they're actually providing produce to their community or they're providing livelihood to other people in that community, We want to be there to, you know, fill, fill and serve that

00:21:30:00 - 00:21:33:19
Olivia Watkins
that niche market.

00:21:33:21 - 00:21:38:20
Mark Titus
While still stunned by the 12%. Yeah.

00:21:38:22 - 00:21:40:17
Olivia Watkins
Wow, That's insane.

00:21:40:19 - 00:22:22:13
Mark Titus
It's insane. And I mean, this is just not knowledge that people have or, you know, on the street. Mainstream American folks just don't get this kind of information. So I'm so grateful you're sharing this with us. I again, you've exploded, you know, three or four different paths here that I'd love to go down. But the first one is staying on this is, do you see the work that you're doing with Black Farmer Fund growing and how big and I know you're talking about a regional food system and this is amazing and this is something we're working on here in Salmon Nation as well out on the West Coast.

00:22:22:15 - 00:22:31:11
Mark Titus
But what is your vision for bringing this these kinds of opportunities to even more folks in in your bio region?

00:22:31:13 - 00:22:59:06
Olivia Watkins
Yeah. So we right now focus on funding farmers who are folks who are working and living in New York. We realize that if we were going to be doing something that has not been done in the particular way that we're doing it, we needed to smart start small, and so we needed to also start with some of the preexisting relationships that we have.

00:22:59:08 - 00:23:28:10
Olivia Watkins
So my other co-founders have I endearingly call them my my elder council. They have been in New York for decades and we have been there's a developed trust that has happened that has allowed us to do our work very effectively and is really kind of the basis for why we're able to do the work that we're doing, that we're doing.

00:23:28:12 - 00:24:08:10
Olivia Watkins
And scaling up trust is something that takes a long time and a lot of effort and we would only want to do that in a way that makes sense and that we're still able to maintain that trust with our community. So focusing on New York in terms of funding, we're very active within the Northeast in terms of supporting, you know, other organizations and also, as I mentioned before, active nationally with supporting other organizations and supporting other black farmers and organizers who are interested in creating some sort of funding vehicle, whether or not it's just grants or it's something else or real estate.

00:24:08:12 - 00:24:42:03
Olivia Watkins
We like to collaborate with folks to be able to give them that advice. In terms of black farmer fund in itself, I think, you know, we would love to make as as big of an impact as we possibly can while still being able to provide, you know, non extractive and patient capital. So again, that takes that definitely takes some time and that takes, you know, trust building and relationship building and, you know, sometimes as well, collaborating with other organizations that can do that work better than we can.

00:24:42:05 - 00:25:14:16
Mark Titus
Excellent, excellent answer. Okay. Next thing that you tripped off in my light switch here was young people. I know I have friends, a lot of friends here in Alaska, in the northwest, who are commercial fishermen and young men and women. And there are barriers like the ones that you mentioned. You know, there's debt, there's financial barriers, there's opportunities for bipoc people that are not readily available in in that realm.

00:25:14:18 - 00:25:26:10
Mark Titus
What what's your vision for young people, for the new generation of farmers, for our food providers? And how can Black Farmer fund really help to catalyze that?

00:25:26:12 - 00:25:58:16
Olivia Watkins
Yeah, I think it's been so great to see that there are so many young people, people, people my age and younger who are interested in participating in our food system. And there are many great organizations that are focused on training up this next generation. So Farm School NYC focuses on training adults and and young folks that are interested in urban farming and then farms.

00:25:58:18 - 00:26:39:04
Olivia Watkins
So fire farm as well. And those are some of the two organizations that we work with and that we have farmers that come out of and approach us for funding. But it's incredibly important. And, you know, I think you mentioned earlier the Bay being on the Forbes list. I think what's been so inspiring about being on that list is being able to meet other young folks like my age who are, you know, ambitious and creating alternative organizations or stewarding, you know, existing organizations into new directions.

00:26:39:04 - 00:27:08:06
Olivia Watkins
I think just generally there is a shift that we're seeing around what is what what we value and how that's different from previous generations. And a lot of my peers are not afraid of vocalizing, you know, the type of world that we want to see. And also taking it a step further to create organizations to, you know, manifest that reality.

00:27:08:07 - 00:27:46:03
Olivia Watkins
So, you know, in our organization, a lot of our staff is under 30 as well. And, you know, that was something that was really important for me personally as being able to provide opportunities for young folks who really are interested in participating in the food system. So that way they feel like their organizations out there that they can work with that align with their values rather than, you know, kind of settling for an organization that may not necessarily be as values aligned.

00:27:46:05 - 00:28:09:11
Mark Titus
It seems it's dazzling and it seems like there is this moment. I mean, we're all aware, I think if you're out in society at all coming emerging out of this last year, you're seeing that there's a dearth of people to work in the workplace. And I think, you know what the listening that I've been doing is that there's a lot of people that are like, I don't really want to go back to what I was doing.

00:28:09:11 - 00:28:37:01
Mark Titus
I don't want to work work for the machine of Giant, the giant food system that we've created in the way that we've created it. Do you see some real opportunities here for these for young folks under 30 in doing things a different way on a regional on a regional basis? And does this does this bring you hope?

00:28:37:03 - 00:29:08:02
Olivia Watkins
Yeah, absolutely. And I think too, there is, you know, trust in some of the older generations. I mean, especially within my organization, as I mentioned, my co-founders are, you know, are, you know, in in in this sixties, seventies and eighties. Right. And they have experience so many different waves of, you know, social movements and waves of values that are important to our society.

00:29:08:04 - 00:29:42:02
Olivia Watkins
And they realize especially that they're at a point of time now where they have to pass on the baton to, you know, young folks who are willing to, you know, carry on some of the things that have worked and change some of the things that have not worked, the the kind of intergenerational value that my organization has has really been instrumental in being able to lean on and kind of stand on the shoulders of my amazing co-founders.

00:29:42:04 - 00:30:23:11
Olivia Watkins
And also I've been given, you know, kind of the privilege and the space to be able to implement different ways of existing right as an organization and as a, you know, a community investment fund. Right? There are different ways that we are creating and existing, you know, new ways of operation operationalizing our values. Right. And it's everything from like even defining what our values are all the way down to, you know, our employees book and then some of the different policies that we're putting in place that, you know, are updated from neo traditional policies.

00:30:23:11 - 00:30:37:08
Olivia Watkins
I think, you know, for for us to be able to do our our work successfully, it's been very important to be able to partner with older generations as well.

00:30:37:10 - 00:31:19:05
Mark Titus
I'm feeling the years as they are creeping on. I'm entering that phase because the things you're talking about resonate with me. You know, now I'm seeing TV ads and social media ads designed for the Gen-X crowd who's slightly, you know, slightly soft around the edges. And and, you know, I'm thinking about that very thing you mentioned about, you know, passing the baton, about identifying how to accelerate the work that, you know, people that have come before me and that I'm working on right now.

00:31:19:05 - 00:31:47:20
Mark Titus
And it's a it's a humbling thing. But it's also it's I think it's really wise and it's encouraging to hear your receptivity to the folks that came before. Obviously, that's a that's a big deal. And and at the same time, it's also really encouraging to see the amount of young people that you are surrounding yourself with and the vigor with which you are approaching your work.

00:31:47:22 - 00:32:17:03
Mark Titus
So I'm going to take a step back here into a little bit of place and history. So I mentioned Salmon Nation. So we're out here in Salmon Nation and I'm involved with a network that are attempting to do work like you're doing. And the reason we call it Salmon Nation is we are attempting to re-envision things as a nature state as opposed to just a nation state with these created squiggles on a map that we've made.

00:32:17:05 - 00:32:57:04
Mark Titus
So really, Salmon Nation extends from Northern California clear up to the top of Alaska. And it's it's really connected by all of the contiguous rivers that salmon touch and salmon as we know our food and also the massive part of community for the people that came before us. So out here in Salmon Nation, we're looking to replicate the work that you're doing in from the ground up, from the edges, where people have had to be innovative and resilient to live in place away from the traditional centralized sources of power and wealth, and especially by indigenous people who persist and thrive here as they have for millennia before.

00:32:57:06 - 00:33:16:20
Mark Titus
You know, despite colonization, those of us who are non-indigenous and are looking for a way forward to live while in place here are trying to listen deeply to our Indigenous neighbors, both about the trauma they endured and the ancestral wisdom about living with and in the land that they have kept. That, I think, gives the human race a glimmer of hope.

00:33:16:22 - 00:33:47:10
Mark Titus
So the true story about the formation of this country has not been told in a clear light of day. It certainly wasn't when I was growing up. This, fortunately, seems to be shifting. How does the work you're doing with Black Farmer Fund and some of the ancillary groups that you're associated with? Like so Fire Farm Carbon Heal Food Project address the disparity and injustice that has been present in this country since 1619.

00:33:47:12 - 00:34:42:23
Olivia Watkins
Yeah. So one of the most valuable partnerships that we have is with an organization called Northeast Farmers of Color Land Trust. And this organization is a beautiful combination of a land trust that provides farmers with access to land that's placing land into to conservation easements, that's working with indigenous communities in the Northeast and also working with other policy communities in the Northeast to be able to continue to steward this mission of protecting land, being able to give land back to Indigenous communities and being able to help farmers access land for the purposes of growing food for this community.

00:34:42:23 - 00:35:19:02
Olivia Watkins
And so for us, we really defer to them in terms of being able to be in solidarity with Indigenous communities because, you know, so the way that the food system has been created, right, was by first stealing land and then by bringing, you know, enslaved people to work the land and the practices. Right. That people were forced to work have degraded the environment and to degradation environment.

00:35:19:02 - 00:36:07:22
Olivia Watkins
So for us, it's really a lot about deferring to our especially our partnership with these farmers of color land trusts, deferring to other Indigenous communities around land stewardship practices, and also making sure that, you know, as an organization that is looking to build out a network of black farmers and food businesses and that there are black farmers that are interested in purchasing land or leasing land, making sure that no displacement is happening in that process and making sure that we're not perpetuating, you know, systems of oppression as we're continuing to build out of this food system that's that's serving our communities.

00:36:08:00 - 00:36:31:12
Mark Titus
We talk a lot about excuse me, we talk a lot about land aggregation. And you were just mentioning this as part of this story. Where are we at with massive land aggregation and how that fits into our food systems and especially people of color getting involved in these food systems?

00:36:31:14 - 00:37:13:08
Olivia Watkins
Yeah, it's definitely a challenging topic that we are seeing and hearing our farmers experience, particularly because of where we're currently at in the real estate market and how people's priorities have shifted because of COVID. Some of our farmers who are interested in accessing land to purchase for their farms are having our time doing so because of how insane the market is right now.

00:37:13:08 - 00:37:58:07
Olivia Watkins
And there are a lot of people who have discretionary income who are coming from urban areas with higher salaries that are able to buy out land and all cash or able to outbid because people's priorities are shifting out of urban environments and driving up prices of of land, which is why organizations like Northeast Farm as a public land trust is incredibly important because being able to put conservation easements, for example, on land helps to the conservation easement, essentially takes away the rights of real estate development on land.

00:37:58:09 - 00:38:33:12
Olivia Watkins
And because real estate development right now is currently what's considered the highest and best use of land, which is ridiculous. That drives down the market value of the land, making it less desirable because you cannot destroy, you know, that that land for, you know, any any real estate or purposes. And that land can only be used for the sake of conservation and agriculture.

00:38:33:14 - 00:39:30:14
Olivia Watkins
So, you know, that is one way that we're seeing, you know, not only knee folk but also other land trusts. You know, across the country trying to do with a can to be able to make it harder for, you know, some of this land aggregation because I think you know, the Yeah. To to to reduce land aggregation and because I think as well you know what we're seeing is that when land is you know continue to be aggregated into sole entities or sole individuals, it you know, it continues to reduce the availability of land that individual farmers that drive, you know, our food system to have access to land, to be able to scale up

00:39:30:14 - 00:39:59:13
Olivia Watkins
their businesses especially with some farmers who are livestock farmers near a significantly a significantly higher amount of acreage for pasture. Right. And being able to scale up vegetable operations as well to a point where people can see a vision of food systems. So that's where it's currently at, at least what where we're experiencing and what we're seeing, you know, in the Northeast.

00:39:59:13 - 00:40:27:19
Olivia Watkins
But again, there are a lot of organizations that are actively working to make sure that land is not only protected from, you know, deforestation and develop, but also that it's being given back to indigenous communities and also being given to black farmers and food that are going to be creating products for the benefit of bipoc communities.

00:40:27:20 - 00:41:12:14
Mark Titus
Absolutely. One of the founders and mentors of mine, founders of Salmon Nation, also founded an organization called Eco Trust out here in Portland, Oregon, and this that work has been focused on working with the land and working with the systems in the land. For instance, if you are, we still use wood and we know now that if you clearcut an entire mountain and you clearcut it through a salmon river, you're going to destroy not only the Salmon River with the spawning grounds for salmon, but any, you know, any kind of stability inside, you know, with the hillside.

00:41:12:14 - 00:41:37:03
Mark Titus
And it's not now it's not a forest, it's a tree farm. And on and on and on, down, down the line with predators and flora, fauna, the entire thing. So we're looking at different ways of working with the land. So instead of a clear cut, how about taking out just a swath that would be replicating a windstorm in the wintertime?

00:41:37:05 - 00:42:15:11
Mark Titus
It sounds like that's precisely this vision as well of working with the land as opposed to buying up mass of it and development and and parceling off bits to the to the highest bidder. Do you see this vision of the vision that you have as a a way to really move forward, working with the land in this climate crisis that we're right smack in the middle of, for maybe the better to say at the beginning of.

00:42:15:13 - 00:42:57:21
Olivia Watkins
Yeah, I don't feel like we're at the beginning of it, but I guess there is more to come. But yeah, definitely. You know, what we are experiencing is definitely has been going on for a long time. Yeah. I think, you know, in thinking about, you know, if, if we're kind of turning to shifting the conversation to thinking about like climate resilience and also just conservation of, you know, our planet, I think especially in forest spaces, it's really important for us to make sure that there are different succession, all stages and succession all yes, exceptional stages.

00:42:57:23 - 00:43:31:13
Olivia Watkins
And, you know, an area particularly because wildlife rights, different types of wildlife depend on different types of succession of stages of forest in order to survive and thrive more so and certain stages more than others. So especially and you know, where I live in North Carolina, there are lots of monoculture of loblolly pine. And so because they're you know, yes, there's a tree farm, right?

00:43:31:13 - 00:43:58:12
Olivia Watkins
There are trees. But it's one particular type of like micro ecosystem that a limited amount of wildlife is able to benefit from. So if we create different succession of stages, it is essentially a more inclusive environment that wildlife can survive. And especially as their their range of motion becomes more limited.

00:43:58:14 - 00:44:30:13
Mark Titus
And especially can you see a future where wildlife and natural systems coexist with our agricultural needs as opposed to just, you know, designating a giant area as agricultural only? And we're going to, you know, mono crop it and Monsanto it and, you know, use that the things that we know are not working for sustainability at this point. Do you see a way forward where things are a little more in balance?

00:44:30:15 - 00:45:04:13
Olivia Watkins
Yeah, I mean, I'm an optimist, so I definitely do have hope that that can exist. It's it's challenging, however, because especially when thinking about the amount of people that are on this planet that need food and the reality that, you know, scale is what is needed in order to be able to, you know, feed everybody on this planet.

00:45:04:15 - 00:45:59:14
Olivia Watkins
But not just skill alone. It's thinking about the the political and social social kind of effects of how scale is created and how the wealth is aggregated within that system. But on a smaller scale, what I have seen, you know, that successfully can combine, you know, nature and agriculture, as we've seen together, is agroforestry. And so with agroforestry right there are two different ways that it can happen where you either have a forest and you're converting that forest into into a food system or you have cleared pasture or cleared land that you're then converting into a forest slash food system.

00:45:59:16 - 00:46:39:07
Olivia Watkins
And so a lot of farmers that are, you know, traditionally, you know, soy corn and we kind of open fields, farmers are looking at agroforestry as a way to kind of bring in some of the forest components, whether or not it's by having perennials, planting more trees on their property, introducing riparian buffers on their property to be able to or even pollinator habitat habitats, to be able to introduce spaces into their farms for wildlife, to be able to prosper.

00:46:39:09 - 00:47:06:02
Olivia Watkins
And then on the other end, right, like if you have a forest, there are certain crops that work beneficially within a forest system, whether or not it's it's mushrooms or shade tolerant plants or even apiaries. But that one is a little bit harder to scale, right? Because it requires you to either decide that, okay, I'm only going to grow shade power plants and not disturb any of the trees at all.

00:47:06:04 - 00:47:32:16
Olivia Watkins
Or you have to make a decision that you're going to cut down X amount of trees in order to make space. So those are the like most most kind of, in my eyes, perfect ways that I've seen that to exist. It's just extremely hard to be able to to scale it and and maintain it in a way that can serve, you know, large populations of people.

00:47:32:18 - 00:48:00:21
Mark Titus
Yeah, that that is the trick. And I think what we're finding though, too, is that, you know, we try to manage things for our benefit and that oftentimes end up blowing up in our face. And I mean, you know, coming back here to to salmon, we clearcut, we mine, we dam, we do these things for for benefit of civilization.

00:48:00:21 - 00:48:33:05
Mark Titus
But then in the process, we wipe out this this major food source. It seems like, you know, when you're really a student of the forest and of regenerative agriculture, you are looking at diversity as a natural way of life, perpetuating life. And so when you're talking about this agroforestry, that seems like a complete extension of that and how to scale it.

00:48:33:07 - 00:48:45:14
Mark Titus
Yeah, I don't know. But know that like the monoculture way of approaching things has is doesn't seem like it's a fully sustainable way forward.

00:48:45:16 - 00:49:36:07
Olivia Watkins
Yeah, it's definitely not sustainable because we're seeing a lot of impacts in terms of soil health and erosion of our soil, you know, and there are many farmers who it for who for instance, will purchase land that was previously monoculture and have to spend X amount of years building up the soil. But I think, you know, the there are different ways and that's why we're really involved in advocacy as much as we can, because there are ways to be able to introduce more systemic change that can help to de incentivize some of the more harsher ways that land is being managed and incentivize, you know, ways that land can be managed in a way that

00:49:36:07 - 00:50:27:08
Olivia Watkins
can hopefully allow those practices to be scaled and scaled, not necessarily, again, going back to aggregation, not necessarily scaling and in the term of aggregation, but more so scaling in the terms of that, there are more people who have access to be able to implement some of these some of these different types of practices like agro forestry, and that there are, you know, market opportunities for people to be able to participate and to so, you know, while maybe having an 100 acre agro forest farm is may not be realistic, but what would it look like if a region had 100 separate agro forest farms?

00:50:27:14 - 00:50:37:14
Olivia Watkins
Right. And there was a market for them to be able to sell their product to where they're able to continue doing that type of practice?

00:50:37:16 - 00:51:00:03
Mark Titus
Exactly. Okay. We've been talking about things from a grassroots level, also from a financial level. But you just mentioned some other channels politically and socially and otherwise. What are some of those channels that you hope to tap into to really catalyze this work?

00:51:00:05 - 00:51:41:01
Olivia Watkins
Yeah, I think for us, you know, developing relationship types and developing networks of relationships amongst farmers is extremely important, especially farmers that are existing in rural areas and are often isolated and, you know, are really near other farmers practice similar practices like they do is extremely important, not only for farmers being able to share information with one another, but also for the purpose of it developing business to business relationships with one another.

00:51:41:03 - 00:52:13:16
Olivia Watkins
And so, you know, there is a lot of energy that we're seeing around, you know, people developing cooperatives or people developing producer cooperatives or market cooperatives where there are either individual farmers that are trying to aggregate their produce together to be able to sell it at markets. And, you know, that can only happen, right, if there's the relationships that exists.

00:52:13:18 - 00:52:25:08
Olivia Watkins
So I think, you know, for us, it's really about how can we provide spaces for people to gather together and create the relationship themselves.

00:52:25:09 - 00:52:59:17
Mark Titus
What do you think about the political climate for this shift in food production and a way of looking at food production? I mean, you know, it's what we hear always is a very sympathetic framework of a farmer. But a farmer is not necessarily what, you know, one in the same across the board. So there certainly seems to be always a soft spot politically for the American farmer.

00:52:59:19 - 00:53:08:18
Mark Titus
But how about for a regenerative American farmer working in a non exploitative and non extractive sense?

00:53:08:20 - 00:53:31:18
Olivia Watkins
Yeah, the I think definition is are important and language is important because some of the language that currently exists, whether or not it's in the farm bill or other state bills that create the definitions of what does it mean to be a farmer and who does or does not, you know, have access to whatever, you know, sympathy. Right.

00:53:31:18 - 00:53:56:15
Olivia Watkins
That's that's being generated nationally, I think is really important. And so there are a lot of groups that are working to redefine what it means to be a farmer and changing language, trying to get language change and bills around what it means to be a farmer. Because as we talked about earlier, right, the demographic of a farmer is drastically changing.

00:53:56:17 - 00:54:20:09
Olivia Watkins
There are a lot of young folks, you know, who are interested in being involved in farming and people are interesting and being farm involved in farming for different reasons. Some are purely economic and others are interested in farming because because of, you know, social and political political reasons and both types of farming and everything in between is extremely valuable.

00:54:20:09 - 00:54:44:18
Olivia Watkins
So the the language around what a farmer is, I think is is not does not clearly articulate the wide breadth of people who are interested in farming in many ways. And so that can also really hinder who can access some of the political benefits of what it means to be a farmer.

00:54:44:20 - 00:55:13:11
Mark Titus
Work to do. Yeah, sure. So early in this conversation you mentioned you were enamored of getting out on the farm and you made a conscious decision that, hey, that's, that's better than for me anyway, than being in the lab. What does it look like for you? How, how? What's paints a picture? How do you, Olivia, connect with the land that you call home right?

00:55:13:13 - 00:55:43:17
Olivia Watkins
Right. Yeah. So in in my role as Black Farmer Fund, I, I am really, really, you know, a lot of the time I spent in black farmer fun is definitely around, like, continuing to grow and steward the organization, but definitely one of my favorite parts of my work with this organization is being able to go out and visit farmers and go help them with different tasks and projects and going to talk one on one with them.

00:55:43:17 - 00:56:12:20
Olivia Watkins
So for instance, a couple of weeks ago we went to a farmer who has an apple orchard with a variety of different other fruits like plums and nectarines. And so we spent the day harvesting plums and touring his apple orchard. And so that for me was the most fulfilling to be able to go out and see many different types of farms and see what farming means.

00:56:12:20 - 00:56:39:07
Olivia Watkins
Different people nerd out on the different technical things that they're doing on their farm and, you know, talking about why different spacings of apple trees are more beneficial than others. And that is that is a way that I, you know, really connect man is really by connecting with other farmers and being able to see other farms and help out on many different pieces of land.

00:56:39:09 - 00:56:46:13
Mark Titus
What's the one spark that gets you up in the morning and keeps you going through the day?

00:56:46:15 - 00:57:24:21
Olivia Watkins
I think the one spark for me is that I really feel like with my organization we are working to redefine some of the more traditional definitions of what does it mean, what does risk mean in investing, investing What does investing mean? What does community wealth building mean? Who is the farmer? What do we value? And I really feel like the work that I'm doing is really in alignment with my values as a person.

00:57:24:23 - 00:57:36:01
Olivia Watkins
And so being able to spend most of my time, you know, doing something that that really aligns who I am, I think is the most motivating for me.

00:57:36:03 - 00:58:02:00
Mark Titus
Well, you're inspiring me, and I know you're inspiring our listeners here and I'm just grateful for your time and your inspiration here. Now, before we wrap this whole affair today, we do a little bonus round and it's not painful. It's kind of fun to use your imagination a little bit, and it's all it's all fantastical. So this is you know, this is never going to happen.

00:58:02:00 - 00:58:25:00
Mark Titus
We're just painting ourselves a little picture. But let's let's just say that your house is in the path of a flooding river. So of course, you get your loved ones out first, your pets, you know, living beings. But in addition to them, what's the one physical thing that you would save from the flood?

00:58:25:02 - 00:58:32:16
Olivia Watkins
I have seeds in my freezer, so I would definitely take those. Absolutely. Of course.

00:58:32:18 - 00:58:50:12
Mark Titus
Perfect is a that is a novel answer. I love it. Okay, so let's call a little bit more of your metaphysical house here. What are the two most important things that make Olivia Olivia that you take with you?

00:58:50:14 - 00:59:03:04
Olivia Watkins
Yeah, I would definitely take my passion and I would also take my drive.

00:59:03:06 - 00:59:13:01
Mark Titus
Both are quite evident and. Is there anything that you would leave behind to be purged, to be rid of that?

00:59:13:03 - 00:59:15:14
Olivia Watkins
Is this metaphysical or physical?

00:59:15:16 - 00:59:21:11
Mark Titus
You can choose either one.

00:59:21:13 - 00:59:28:21
Olivia Watkins
I would leave my compost so that way it can be decomposed into into the floods forever.

00:59:28:21 - 00:59:47:06
Mark Titus
The fiber, That's all. That's beautiful. Okay, so lastly for today, how can people get involved with the work you're doing and follow what you're doing? Because it's an incredible story. It's an incredible movement. And I know that there's going to be a lot of folks that want to get involved and learn more.

00:59:47:08 - 01:00:30:21
Olivia Watkins
Yeah. So our website Black Farmer Fund dot org is one of the main ways we have a way that you can sign up for our newsletter where. We post updates and people can also donate through our page. And we also have an Instagram, which is our Black Farmer Fund, where we post different educational pieces moments from when we have site visits as well, announcements and, and yeah, people can also reach out to us or our email is on our website in terms of wanting to get further involved with our organization.

01:00:30:23 - 01:00:51:13
Mark Titus
Fantastic. I'm for one hoping that we're we're moving. I know we've got, we're back into this COVID weirdness for a minute and but I'm hoping that someday soon we'll be able to see each other physically in person. I would love to do a food trade at some point.

01:00:51:15 - 01:00:52:05
Olivia Watkins
yes.

01:00:52:07 - 01:01:04:01
Mark Titus
Bring you some salmon and some Dungeness crab from out here in the northwest and and get a little bit of all of the great produce that you're working on. And really, we can make that happen someday down the line.

01:01:04:03 - 01:01:16:18
Olivia Watkins
Yes, absolutely. I'm hoping that this COVID situation passes soon as well with, you know, swiftness. And yeah, I would love for that to happen.

01:01:16:20 - 01:01:27:11
Mark Titus
Well, let's stay in touch. And for now, thank you. Olivia Watkins, please check out her website at Black Farmer Fund dot org and we'll see you down the trail.

01:01:27:13 - 01:01:29:12
Olivia Watkins
Thank you so much for having me.

Music
How do you save what you love?
How do you save what you love?

01:01:29:14 - 01:02:10:11
Mark Titus
Thank you for listening to Save What You Love. If you like what you're hearing, you can help keep these conversations coming your way by giving us a rating on Apple Podcasts. You can check out photos and links from this episode at evaswild.com. While there, you can join our growing community by subscribing to our newsletter, you'll get exclusive offers on wild salmon shipped to your door and notifications about upcoming guests and more great content on the way.

01:02:10:13 - 01:02:49:03
Mark Titus
That's at evaswild.com. That's the word Save spelled backwards Wild dot com. This episode was produced by Tyler White and edited by Patrick Troll. Original music was created by Whiskey Class. This podcast is a collaboration between Ava's Wild Stories and Salmon Nation and was recorded on the homelands of the Duwamish. People. We'd like to recognize these lands and waters and their significance for the people who lived and continued to live in this region whose practices and spiritualities were and are tied to the land in the water, and whose lives continue to enrich and develop in relationship to the land waters and other inhabitants today.