Save What You Love with Mark Titus

00:00:00:17 - 00:00:25:09
Mark Titus
Hi friends. Welcome to the Save What You Love podcast. I'm your host, Mark Titus. Today's episode we feature Stacy Bare. Stacy was born in Lincoln, Nebraska and is a husband, father, skier, surfer and climber. He's a veteran of the Iraq War and co-founded the Great Outdoors Lab in 2014 to put scientifically defensible data behind the idea of time outside as health care.

00:00:25:09 - 00:00:49:14
Mark Titus
Wow. Imagine that. Stacy is the 2014 National Geographic Adventurer of the year. In 2015, he launched Adventure Not War, a project designed to take him back to all the places he fought, cleaned up after war, or was supposed to fight in the first and expedition saw he and rock climbing legend Alex Honnold put up new climbing routes in Angola.

00:00:49:16 - 00:01:20:23
Mark Titus
In 2017, he and two fellow veterans completed a first ski descent of Mount Howard in Iraq, chronicled in the award winning film he produced, "Adventure, Not War," that was screened in more than 50 festivals around the world during the pandemic. Stacy started Friends of Grand Rapids Parks to make Grand Rapids, Michigan, the healthiest, most park equitable city in America with goals to achieve 40% tree canopy for Grand Rapids and for all people who live within ten minutes of a park or open space.

00:01:21:01 - 00:01:51:23
Mark Titus
As someone who's worked with the National Park, National Forest and BLM systems, Stacy started working with tribes to help them reconnect with land that once belonged to their people and make sure that the rights afforded them in the treaties signed decades ago are upheld. In this episode, we talk about surviving and emerging from trauma. Welcoming Veterans Home, healing through recovery, adventure not war, green spaces and wildness for everyone, and more.

00:01:51:23 - 00:02:04:20
Mark Titus
Topics. Hey, you know Stacy lays it bare. And, I'm a better man for having a conversation with him. I hope you find something you can use from his experience and wisdom to onward.

00:02:04:21 - 0:02:41:02
Music
How do you save what you love?
When the world is burning down?
How do you save what you love?
When pushes come to shove.
How do you say what you love?
When things are upside down.
How do you say what you love?
When times are getting tough.

00:02:41:04 - 00:02:45:08
Mark Titus
Stacy Bare, welcome to the show. Where are you beaming in from today?

00:02:45:10 - 00:02:54:01
Stacy Bare
Beaming in from beautiful Grand Rapids, Michigan, on America's favorite West coast.

00:02:54:03 - 00:02:56:05
Mark Titus
Did you just make that up?

00:02:56:07 - 00:03:08:23
Stacy Bare
I did a little bit, but we do talk about the West Coast out here, being, you know, because because we're on the west coast of Lake Michigan. And since you're on the since you're on America's West coast, I just wanted to get a little needle in.

00:03:08:23 - 00:03:35:08
Mark Titus
Well, needle felt, I my family originally came from the Midwest, from Wisconsin. And, way they found their way out here is my dad isn't exactly trick my mom, but he definitely kind of pushed and loaded the car up and headed west for the woods and the mountains and the fishing and the hunting. But that bug was firmly ensconced because of being from the Midwest in Wisconsin.

00:03:35:08 - 00:03:49:07
Mark Titus
So, you know, let's let's just start right there. I know this is kind of a new experience for you, but let's let's go back in time here. Let's get caught up. Tell us a little bit about your story and how you how you got to Michigan at this.

00:03:49:09 - 00:04:08:08
Stacy Bare
Yeah. How we got to Michigan. So I, I grew up in South Dakota. My dad was an and professor. He actually got his master's degree at Michigan State in taught ag intentions. And he had a television show in South Dakota called Gars Line. And you can call in and ask questions about your garden. And he would he and his buddies would get the answers.

00:04:08:10 - 00:04:30:00
Stacy Bare
But, you know, when I was 17 years old, I wanted to get out of my hometown. It was the biggest city I'd ever lived in. I thought it was a city of 15,000 people. And I got an art scholarship and took that as an opportunity to go explore the rest of the country. I went to the University of Mississippi for for undergraduate, which was a great experience in terms of food and music and people and literature.

00:04:30:02 - 00:04:50:22
Stacy Bare
And then I was in the military, so I was stationed in Germany, did a stint in Bosnia, left the army, the army. And I have always had different ideas about what I should do. And I think in large part that's because of my first name. The Army never quite figured out. And VA slowly is figuring out that, I, I'm a fella.

00:04:51:00 - 00:04:55:04
Stacy Bare
I'm a boy. I don't need the annual pap smear anymore.

00:04:55:06 - 00:04:57:05
Mark Titus
Did you actually get that?

00:04:57:07 - 00:05:18:07
Stacy Bare
when I was coming out of my in 2007, we were going through this, like, medically orderly checklist. I headed over towards women's health, and it was on my checklist, and I had a conversation with the orderly, and I was like, I don't think I need this. And I it was like, you do, it's on your checklist. And I was like, don't, I get it, I am.

00:05:18:09 - 00:05:47:12
Stacy Bare
And there's nobody more powerful in the United States military, excuse me, in the United States military than a medical orderly. So I headed back to the doc. We had a laugh, and she checked my box and away we went. Yeah, but yeah. So I was in the Army, and then I did, for a couple of years, landmine clearance angle in the former Soviet state of Georgia and then got recalled, did a year in Baghdad, left Army a second time, ended up in graduate school in Philly for a couple of years, which was a really great experience.

00:05:47:14 - 00:06:06:18
Stacy Bare
And then, my first job out of grad school was out in Colorado, and that put me on a whole different path. I thought I was going right. I thought I was going to be, you know, East Coast designer, architect, working in cities, working on these big projects like the Highline in Brooklyn. That's what I was really motivated for.

00:06:06:18 - 00:06:23:08
Stacy Bare
And then also to go back to the places I had been. It's Baghdad is such a beautiful city, right? I mean, the it's one of the first cities that humans ever made. It's it's beautiful around the two rivers and the landscape is really gorgeous. And I thought, well, maybe someday I could go back and be part of rebuilding Baghdad.

00:06:23:10 - 00:06:40:10
Stacy Bare
I was there. That was my job formerly in the United States military, but I thought, what if I could go back? How cool would that be? But I ended up on a really different path. I, what do you got me out? Rock climbing? as a as an alternative to to death by suicide or rejoining the military.

00:06:40:12 - 00:07:00:17
Stacy Bare
And that took me on this whole other career arc. And then with the pandemic, we ended up in Salt Lake City for a decade. And then with the pandemic, the work I was doing really fell apart because it was group outdoor work. It was corporate speaking, it was organizing big events, and there wasn't a place to do that right during the pandemic.

00:07:00:17 - 00:07:20:02
Stacy Bare
So I ended up driving a forklift for a bike company. I went back to work at the local air force base, and my wife and I were commuting in opposite directions as Utah. For us, as beautiful and as wonderful as it is, as many friends and wonderful memories we have there. We got married there, we bought our first house, our daughter was born.

00:07:20:04 - 00:07:45:20
Stacy Bare
We just fell that it was no longer home, and we had had a really hard time telling one another that right, because we were worried that the other person would be really upset if we were like, you know, I feel in the mountains, but both of us have grown up going to Minnesota. I went to a boy Scout camp on the lake next door to where she went to her family reunion.

00:07:45:21 - 00:08:08:22
Stacy Bare
she grew up in Arizona. I went to high school with some of her cousins in South Dakota, so it was pretty crazy that we finally met. And her mom is from Jackson, Michigan. And so we've been coming out here over the years. And in 2019, we came out and visited her grandma headed up to the U.P. and our daughter's a wonderful, human, super engaged, fun kid.

00:08:09:00 - 00:08:31:14
Stacy Bare
You put that kid in one of the great Lakes and she is right. She's a whole different. She's just so much more herself. And so as we were heading back to Detroit from that trip where like we spent cabin out here like, this should be our place. And then the pandemic happened. And when it came around 2021, I was stuck in traffic on the way home.

00:08:31:14 - 00:08:50:14
Stacy Bare
And some other things happened in our life where we got to the conversation, where we finally had it. And you're like, I think, I think you talked. I think the Wasatch wants us to leave. And that our kind of family joke and everybody know that John Miracle, right. The mountains are calling and I must go. I tell you what.

00:08:50:16 - 00:09:08:16
Stacy Bare
If the mountains can call, the mountains can hang up. And we've been listening to that ringtone, but not really paying attention to it. You know that, dad, you know, for those like we're the age where you remember that hung up ringtone, right? You keep and that's where we're at. And we looked around and said, where do we want to go?

00:09:08:18 - 00:09:38:00
Stacy Bare
And reached out to friends all over. And Michigan just leaned back super hard, back to us. And we came out. We checked out West Michigan, we fell in love. And the opportunity for the position I'm in now as executive director of Friends of Grand Rapids, parks opened up and I was lucky enough to get hired. And so we traded in a great mountain range, one of the best mountain ranges, I think, in America with, the Great Lakes and fresh coast dunes and endless exploration and opportunity out here.

00:09:38:00 - 00:09:50:00
Stacy Bare
So it's it's been a huge transition, but it's been an incredible, incredible opportunity. And for us and our life, it has been absolutely the right decision.

00:09:50:02 - 00:10:38:14
Mark Titus
Amazing. Well, I'm hearing a lot of being led by wonder. And and there's that's a lot of what I want to talk about. But, before that, I'm in a position in life right now looking at transitions and, creating some new rituals and some transformative kind of, salience in my life. And one of the things that is, is I'm wading into this is that, it's apparent both in terms of teach, wisdom, teaching and, and as I'm learning on my own, that acknowledging the shadow, acknowledging the dark parts of our life, is not only, is not only healthy, it's necessary.

00:10:38:14 - 00:11:06:20
Mark Titus
It's absolutely necessary. So there is a whole lot here we're going to talk about in terms of the incredible work you've done and you are doing, and you're going to do. But first off, I want to thank you for your service to our country. And I wanted to explore a moment of, you know, you mentioned, having suicidal ideation and, mental health is something we talked about a lot on the show.

00:11:06:22 - 00:11:22:16
Mark Titus
what is that place that you you you were in, post service or during service? And then how did that frame for you, what you call positive or experiences?

00:11:22:18 - 00:11:53:09
Stacy Bare
That's a really big question. One of these days, maybe I'll put kind of paper and get a book out about a lot of that. but yeah, you know, I came home from Iraq in 2007 and I've talked about this before. I've written about this, my home record, because I had lived overseas, my home, it was my brother's house in Hartford, Connecticut, and, you know, the abrupt transition from being in the military to out of the military.

00:11:53:11 - 00:12:19:12
Stacy Bare
A month prior, three weeks prior, I was getting my truck blown up in Baghdad, and I was getting shot at three weeks later, waiting at an international airport for my brother to come pick me up in Hartford. Clears out quick between flights right. And the sun is setting that home earlier than anybody expected. Brother had to finish work.

00:12:19:12 - 00:12:46:23
Stacy Bare
He was hustling to get to me alone. And, and watching the sunset. My brother picks me up, and we got to go to the grocery store, and I just was overwhelmed at the choice in America. Right. Absolutely overwhelmed by the and at the time. And moving forward, you know, all years I struggled with a lot of drug addiction.

00:12:46:23 - 00:13:08:07
Stacy Bare
I struggled with so many different things around that. And there's so many different ways, like, there's so much I want to tell you about this story because there's all these little intricacies and there's these things that happen. And but the the longer of it is I kept trying to blame my military service as to why I was feeling the way I was, because that's what was available to me.

00:13:08:07 - 00:13:35:08
Stacy Bare
That was the narrative that people were being told, that's how you got your VA benefits, right? But I got home in 2007. PTSD wasn't added as a disability until 2014, when I first filed my paperwork for PTSD. You had to know the American, the American name, Social Security number, and rank you had seen killed. That's how you got PTSD.

00:13:35:10 - 00:14:03:15
Stacy Bare
It wasn't through watching Iraqi children get killed. It wasn't through watching a dog eating of a dead man on a street in Baghdad. It wasn't even picking up the intestines, a Navy EOD operator who had blown himself up at base. And you put those intestines there and work to stop the double femoral bleeding. They didn't die, but the person in front of them did.

00:14:03:15 - 00:14:30:22
Stacy Bare
But you didn't even notice them because their body was so mutilated by the time you arrived first on the scene. And I didn't take the time to write down that name and Social Security number. I didn't even really remember who that individual was. Even when I went to the funeral to reconnect with the people in the team, I didn't get the name, rank, and serial number of the individual that I helped because I didn't think to do that, and that was the burden we were placing on our soldiers.

00:14:31:00 - 00:15:00:15
Stacy Bare
It had to be an American. You had to know the name. You had to know the Social Security number or rank. That's since changed, which is positive. But for a number of veterans, I felt like I owned that PTSD and or that challenge. And I remember going on to a non to to a therapist in my early 30s, and we sat down and we talked for an hour, and I said to our I said, hey, at the end of it, I said, you know, I don't know if this is working out.

00:15:00:15 - 00:15:16:21
Stacy Bare
I don't know if I'm going to come back. She said, why not? So first of all, it doesn't feel bad. I don't feel bad, so I don't I don't think this is working. And second of all, we haven't even talked about the war. The war. And she was like, how old were you when you went to war the first time?

00:15:16:23 - 00:15:35:10
Stacy Bare
I said, 25. And she said, how old were you when you came home? Said, 29. It's an infant. How many things do you like in your 33? Now? And I was like, yeah, she was. So you don't think any of those 25 years leading up to war had an impact? You don't think anything you did over the last several years responding to that war has had an impact.

00:15:35:12 - 00:16:18:15
Stacy Bare
So, like, you think it was just a war. And so there's all of that. Right. And I think PTSD, recognizing that PTSD isn't owned by veterans, that not all trauma is PTSD, that not all bad things are trauma. And then the fourth thing that I've really been digging into lately, Mark, and it's been a rage of mine that I think I'm finally able to kind of address and begin thinking through, is the notion of the hero's journey, because I had Hmhm and I think Homer probably wrote a third book after the Odyssey.

00:16:18:17 - 00:16:46:06
Stacy Bare
Where one of two things happens we either have to see, this person pronoun behave and laugh at their mistakes, and I'm unpack all the things that happened. Or Homer would have revealed that it was all a farce. But instead we got these two books, which in my mind are best satire, at worst, the worst of what the human experience could be.

00:16:46:08 - 00:17:19:13
Stacy Bare
But I think those books are satire and the experience of elite leadership and the value of war, because it's so ridiculous. But when you come home, so much has been made, thanks to Joseph Campbell and other folks who have glommed on to these ideas about this hero's journey, and it makes for an okay Hollywood tale. But ultimately it creates separateness and individuality and what we're missing out of the military, and why many people go to the military and why some of the times when people get hurt in the military, it's so painful.

00:17:19:13 - 00:17:46:03
Stacy Bare
Is that connection, is that community. But the hero's journey, which many veterans are asked to embark on when they get home and everyone is at somewhere, this is a rags to riches story, right? It's so individualistic, like, no wonder we're so polarized right now, because we believe that if we just work hard enough, if we can be strong enough, if we can keep going.

00:17:46:05 - 00:18:12:17
Stacy Bare
On the flip side, it's all about self care, and we're missing the point on self-care. But again, that's super individualized. Like, what hope do we have without that connection with one another? so that's, you know, I can dig into more details around that, generational trauma, you know, what does it look like when you're family? Like, my mom's family came from pogrom, in Eastern Europe.

00:18:12:19 - 00:18:38:18
Stacy Bare
And then they settled in the, you know, in Nebraska, which had just been cleared out by program of the Pawnee. So, if you've just escaped with your life, you're not going to question where it is you landed. If it feels even remotely safe. Right? And that's where I come from. On my mom's side. Like, who's not going to have some trouble, you know?

00:18:38:20 - 00:19:10:01
Stacy Bare
But the value of that war was because as a veteran, I'm allowed to have PTSD. Very few other people still are allowed to have PTSD, but especially when I came out of war, you could have PTSD if you're a veteran, if you're a cop, if you're a firefighter, maybe if you had breast cancer and maybe if you were, if you had cancer as a kid, other than that, most people weren't allowed to have PTSD, if you know what I mean by allowed.

00:19:10:03 - 00:19:34:03
Mark Titus
First of all, thank you for going there with me and and trusting me with your, your inner vulnerability and your story. it's it's it's important. It's sacred. And, I believe observing your work, it is going to be a healing balm. Your ability to share that with people. So I'm grateful. Thank you.

00:19:34:05 - 00:19:35:02
Stacy Bare
Yeah.

00:19:35:04 - 00:20:11:08
Mark Titus
Yeah. And secondly, you lit up about 100 lights for me. I'm going to try to stay focused because, I want to talk about all of them, but I a few observations are that, yeah, I think we're just coming to a sense of language about what trauma is. Varying degrees of trauma. I have friends that, a lot of indigenous friends that, are experiencing and have experienced generational intergenerational trauma.

00:20:11:10 - 00:20:13:12
Mark Titus
it's just so apparent.

00:20:13:14 - 00:20:16:08
Stacy Bare
And throwing the whole boarding school situation.

00:20:16:10 - 00:20:27:17
Mark Titus
It's it's incredible. It's incredible. I'm working with the director right now. Murray Clements, who did a film called Bones of Crows. It's a Canadian film. If you haven't seen it yet, it's amazing. You should see it.

00:20:27:19 - 00:20:28:12
Stacy Bare
Because.

00:20:28:14 - 00:20:57:22
Mark Titus
Bones of Crows and it takes place during World War Two, and it hits right on the head. The, the, residential schools in Canada, which, of course, we had its mirror here in the States. But back to yet. Look, we're just coming to trying to come to an understanding of language, of how to express what this is and, and that, that yeah, we can all carry various pieces of this and where do we go from here?

00:20:58:00 - 00:21:21:18
Mark Titus
I'm reading a book, right now about Soul Craft, and I'm just into it right now. I mentioned some transitions and transformation I'm working on, on some, some of that myself. But in the very first part of this book, the is talking about seeking community, seeking his place, seeking, seeking. Where are my people? Where is my place in the world?

00:21:21:20 - 00:21:54:09
Mark Titus
And and guess what? He's going through wilderness and through nature to to do that. So to come back around here, why do you believe nature is a great healer, the great healer? And how have positive, experiences kind of shaped and molded and, reframed and turned your life inside out from the the place of darkness that you've experienced.

00:21:54:11 - 00:22:04:22
Stacy Bare
Speaking of. So you mean you. I can tell if we're under a tornado warning. If they're just if they're just practicing the public safety system. But if all of a sudden I just jump out of my desk, that's what's going to happen here.

00:22:05:00 - 00:22:05:13
Mark Titus
and, yeah.

00:22:05:15 - 00:22:27:19
Stacy Bare
I mean, you know, I've been through and as many people are like the journey with nature and the journey with are ecstatic experience. Right. And I think we're fundamentally looking at the same thing when you, you know, the same thing that folks who advocate for psychedelic experiences, it's ultimately the same thing in many ways. I think that we're advocating flow and we're going outdoors.

00:22:27:20 - 00:22:44:06
Stacy Bare
And, you know, the first time I had that, like overwhelming experience of, and I've had a lot all of us have had all throughout our lives. Right? It's just whether or not we recognize it and begin to cultivate it. And one of the amazing things about that is that awe and wonder cultivating a sense of on wonder are not diminishing.

00:22:44:08 - 00:23:04:04
Stacy Bare
Right? You can continue to cultivate that. And the more you work on it, the more it grows. The more you recognize it in your life, the more you recognize it in your life. And I just it was such an amazing experience when I went rock climbing with my buddy Chuck. And, there were a couple other things that happened with that.

00:23:04:04 - 00:23:23:20
Stacy Bare
Right? I was I had a lot of suicidal ideation, which has been a battle for me for a long time, even well before the military, and even went after the military. And at this point, you know, so much of my time has been outside that I found so much resilience because of the outdoors. And now as climate is shifting, we've had two really crappy winters here in Michigan.

00:23:23:22 - 00:23:39:23
Stacy Bare
I haven't had the number of ski days I would normally look forward to. And so it's like, damn, I got to be resilient again. Like, why do I have to keep being resilient and bounce back? I don't I don't want to keep crumbling up and then figuring out how to flatten myself out again, or you know, that that's like mixing metaphors and bouncing back.

00:23:39:23 - 00:24:19:18
Stacy Bare
And I was thinking about crumbling tinfoil by. Yeah, it it was it's the connection that happens to to yourself, to the people around you when you're in these beautiful places. Right. And it's what you talk about when you, when you have these experiences with other people and how that stuff bonded together and. It's that feeling, right? The positive feeling of, is that world is so much bigger than you, but you still are guaranteed a place and have a place in it, and you can see the connection and you can see all those moments and kind of tendrils reaching out right.

00:24:19:20 - 00:24:38:13
Stacy Bare
For the negative side of, is when you feel so small and the world is so big and you don't have a right to be there, and the world is going to crash, you know, and I think a lot of us are feeling aspects of negative, and certainly I felt that in the military as well. But sometimes I think you've got to have both.

00:24:38:13 - 00:25:03:12
Stacy Bare
Right. you can't have up without down. And I think about some of those experience as well. When I look back on it specifically this massive dust storm that came raging across the forward operating base, I was on. And there's that brief moment right before you're about to get kicked out of you by sand, where you recognize the beauty and the colors and the hues of the oranges and pinks in that sand in this overwhelming and cloud.

00:25:03:12 - 00:25:23:04
Stacy Bare
Right. It's coming at you and angrily and you can see those just cracks of beauty, before you jump underneath the bunker and just try to keep everything as much sand as possible out of your eyes and the orifices that are available for the sand to get into, which, even if they're covered, the sand just finds its way to pack in.

00:25:23:06 - 00:25:44:07
Stacy Bare
but I can look at those as moments of positive, all right, like I can retrain my body to do that. I think what I really struggled ultimately was thinking that every time I had to go out, I had to have a mind blowing experience like I did that first time, or like when I caught my first wave as a surfer or, you know, come in if you're fishing, right.

00:25:44:07 - 00:26:11:04
Stacy Bare
The tug is the drug, and sometimes right, like, it might be the tiniest little fry that is the most fun fish to catch. And other times you might be battling with an absolute longer. There's something where the joy isn't as much there as it was before, right? And it dips and it rolls and and I think we struggle because we think every time, has to be this mind blowing experience.

00:26:11:06 - 00:26:33:22
Stacy Bare
And what I've really realized over time, though, is, is that those, experiences opened me up to curiosity, to conversation, and ultimately allowed me to get the help that I wanted to get to and to do the things I wanted to go do in life. And so, it is a magical healer, but it doesn't heal everything, but it creates a space for you to do that.

00:26:33:22 - 00:26:55:23
Stacy Bare
It creates a space for mindfulness. It creates a space for reflection and gratitude, a connection to something bigger than yourself. You might call that God. Other people might call that, you know, the universe. I have my own faith. tradition that I grew up in and that I've gotten back to. But nature has helped bring me back to those things.

00:26:56:01 - 00:27:26:11
Stacy Bare
And you can see it written all throughout Scripture and history, regardless of what it is people are trying to explain. And so I think it's this universal aspect of us that just pull this up, right? It lifts the floor of our of our mental health, and it removes the ceiling of how far we can go emotionally. then over the last couple years, working in more in city parks and regional parks, I've been able to find that, in all sorts of little places.

00:27:26:16 - 00:27:55:22
Stacy Bare
And, whereas before I thought it was only these massive visual landscapes, and I think we're overly trained towards the visual landscapes, which are great, but we can also experience, author, taste and smell and through sound and through touch. but it's in nature because we are of nature, right? I mean, like, we talk a lot about our cities and the freak of nature, but, you know, you like, we've just figured out termite mounds better than termites, really?

00:27:56:00 - 00:28:04:03
Stacy Bare
Like, what's a high rise if not a tournament mound? And why are we so insistent that that's not nature?

00:28:04:05 - 00:28:26:16
Mark Titus
That's a it's an amazing question. And what I've actually been talking about in the last 48 hours. I'm going to come back to that, in in depth, I want to cover one more bit here in, in Shadowland. to, to touch on something that's very familiar with me. I am like you. I'm in recovery.

00:28:26:16 - 00:28:29:12
Mark Titus
I'm seven years in recovery today.

00:28:29:13 - 00:28:31:02
Stacy Bare
And so that's my birthday.

00:28:31:04 - 00:28:52:04
Mark Titus
Thanks, man. And I'm wondering if I know and I've I've, spoken about my moment of clarity many times in meetings. would you be willing to share about your moment of clarity and the breaking of dawn on your horizon that that at least started that path to recovery for you?

00:28:52:06 - 00:29:27:21
Stacy Bare
Sure. it's really interesting. I actually thought about recovery when you brought up, you know, your friend who's who's seeking out and looking for their people, looking for their solution and recovery is such challenging space to begin to welcome other people into your journey? especially when it's somebody else in recovery. Right. And I want to get honest by saying it's such a deeply personal journey for people to recovery.

00:29:27:23 - 00:29:40:12
Stacy Bare
And I also am a really strong believer that sobriety is an outstanding tool that can be abused in many of the ways that alcohol or substance can be abused.

00:29:40:14 - 00:29:41:15
Mark Titus
You bet.

00:29:41:17 - 00:30:09:22
Stacy Bare
But one of the things that I really enjoyed about my long term sobriety was when I did have the opportunity and realized that sobriety wasn't the end goal, but the healing from why I felt I had to a reset my mind and numb my mind so much. That's the end goal. And I think a lot of times sobriety can be weaponized to ensure that healing never happens in the same way that alcohol was weaponized.

00:30:10:00 - 00:30:41:20
Stacy Bare
Right. And it's and if we're just trading one system for the other, we're now moving forward. And one of the hard parts is when you're thinking about, like, signing your own people. Right. as my journey began to veer from a lot of the people I started it with, I think other people have, you find that thing that works so well for you, and somebody else comes along and says, well, this is how I'm doing it, but that's great that that's how you're doing it.

00:30:41:22 - 00:31:06:18
Stacy Bare
It feels like a different way. It's threatening you, not just your method of recovery, but you. Right. And that's what can be so hard about recovery is just navigating all these really intense feelings. Because I don't think I've ever been so selfish in those first couple of years of recovery. I think it's such a need for that selfishness.

00:31:06:20 - 00:31:23:23
Stacy Bare
how do I stay safe? But being aware of that, right. And I remember, like, working I went the steps and there was a lot of value in there other than when people talk to me about recovery. I was like, take what you can, but it may not be everything for you. And it says that right in the big book, right?

00:31:24:01 - 00:31:44:00
Stacy Bare
This isn't the only way. It's right away. But then it gets canonized differently. Or is that happened before in any sort of scripture, I don't know. Yeah, right. Yeah. fairly certain that everybody gets love. Anyway, that's so. Yeah. but.

00:31:44:02 - 00:31:47:14
Mark Titus
I mean, was there a particular moment for you.

00:31:47:16 - 00:31:48:00
Stacy Bare
Starting to.

00:31:48:01 - 00:31:53:06
Mark Titus
Rock bottom and then into a moment of clarity like, man, this, this, I mean, mine was.

00:31:53:06 - 00:31:53:16
Stacy Bare
Yeah.

00:31:53:19 - 00:31:55:08
Mark Titus
Super frickin distinct.

00:31:55:08 - 00:31:59:03
Stacy Bare
Like totally, totally. Yeah. And I apologize for the really long caveat. Oh, no.

00:31:59:03 - 00:32:00:14
Mark Titus
No, you're we're rolling, brother.

00:32:00:15 - 00:32:25:23
Stacy Bare
Keep going. I'm tangential, if you haven't noticed. I more like a pack of Greenland dogs versus American sled dogs just all over the place. yeah, there definitely was. Man. I had just moved out to DC. I was about three years removed from my last in the military. The lot of my buddies that were still in or who had taken jobs in the military industrial complex were in DC.

00:32:26:01 - 00:32:40:05
Stacy Bare
And every night it was like homecoming every night. And I went out and I threw down hard. And it was it was a celebration of life. And that was always the thing to like. When I did a ton of cocaine, I was like, man, I haven't missed four years of fun. Like, I don't have a problem. Yeah, problem.

00:32:40:07 - 00:33:02:21
Stacy Bare
And, so I was thrown down really hard and, I woke up, at my buddy's place and, had to get back, and we were like. We, like, just on the edge of southern North Virginia. That makes sense. And I had to get back up to my place, which was just. And, Takoma Park, Maryland, side of the border.

00:33:02:23 - 00:33:11:04
Stacy Bare
And, I had to get up there. It was me. Had to put a suit on.

00:33:11:06 - 00:33:31:11
Stacy Bare
I had to go in, and sweat through the suit, and I sweat through my tie like, it was disgusting, and I. And I smelled like. I smelled like, I don't know, like, if they had brewed something specifically called acid vodka. Like, that's what I. That's what I was. And,

00:33:31:13 - 00:33:34:08
Mark Titus
I think I've dubbed that behind my ears from time to time.

00:33:34:13 - 00:33:35:22
Stacy Bare
That totally. This is a little bit of.

00:33:35:23 - 00:33:39:09
Mark Titus
Like, yeah, just just a touched on on special occasions.

00:33:39:11 - 00:34:02:09
Stacy Bare
Yeah. Broken. Wow. Broken ass up. and, you know, I went to this meeting. It was an important meeting for my job and connecting. And I'd only been in this job for about a month, and it was an awesome opportunity. And the woman cleared out the room. She saw what was going on. Sheetz. Malvo was going for everybody else and smelled it, too.

00:34:02:11 - 00:34:22:00
Stacy Bare
And, to clear out the room. And she said, Stacy, you've got amazing opportunity in front of me. And she had met me once before, and she was like, passionate, committed. She's like, but you got to sort yourself out. and I think you know what I'm talking about. And if you don't, you feel free to ask questions.

00:34:22:02 - 00:34:50:13
Stacy Bare
But my recommendation is go get yourself sorted out. And when you feel better, we can have this. And the grace that that was extended to me in that moment, and the kindness and the forgiveness as well as that honesty. I laughed. I was shaking, right? I was now fully in withdrawals. and I called my buddy Ted, who I knew had had had been through a similar but different path.

00:34:50:13 - 00:35:03:02
Stacy Bare
And I said, Ted, what do I do? And Ted was like, well, how are you feeling, man? And I was like, I told him the whole story. And he was like, well, how are you feeling? And I was like, I just told you, I feel like shit. And like, like, I'm gonna lose my job. I didn't do it, you know?

00:35:03:04 - 00:35:15:19
Stacy Bare
I just got out here and stop. And he's like, is it? I mean, but how are you feeling? Like he just kept asking, like, how are you feeling? And I was like, okay, I don't know, man. And he was like, do you think you can make it through the day? And I was like, yeah. And he was like, all right, you're get it?

00:35:15:20 - 00:35:37:11
Stacy Bare
Okay. You're right man. And we just kept checking in with each other. I set a deadline for my last drink. I, you know, it was a very different method than I think a lot of other people have gone through. But. And then I was. I was sober for a day, and then I called him, and I said, hey, I made it through the day.

00:35:37:15 - 00:36:00:08
Stacy Bare
And he was like, do you want to try another another day or what do you want to do? And so at every chance he was giving me, I was trusting in him that he would guide me. He was trusting in me that I would make the best decisions for me. And throughout that process, you know, I evolved and I grew and I learned a lot about myself.

00:36:00:08 - 00:36:19:03
Stacy Bare
And, I remember at one point I did have, you know, a relapse. And I called another friend of mine up, and I was like, yeah, I had a really bad relapse. And this is what happened. And then same thing. Are you okay? Did you hurt anybody? Did you hurt yourself? What happened? What's the big deal? Like what really happened there?

00:36:19:05 - 00:36:41:04
Stacy Bare
How are you feeling now? Where do you want to go? And so I was always surrounded by really positive reinforcement. And one of the things that helped me a lot. And I know streaks are really important for a lot of people. But as somebody who's been really active in the outdoors, for me, I also started climbing a lot later in life and didn't start climbing until I was 31.

00:36:41:06 - 00:37:03:12
Stacy Bare
I didn't start skiing until I was 31 and 33. I didn't really start mountain biking again until a few years back. I fall like six foot seven, 250 pounds. And that what you would call a natural athlete. I'm certainly not what you would call ordinated. And there's not a lot of gravity athletes out there size, but there are others.

00:37:03:12 - 00:37:20:00
Stacy Bare
I mean, there anybody could be. Elliott's bigger than me, and he's one of the most graceful, fun people to watch ski, ride. Like I go to a bike park just to watch Kobe Bryant. It's such a it's such a beautiful rider. Dean Cotter was another. Clearly that guy I knew, you know, knew his way around. Gravity sports team was awesome.

00:37:20:00 - 00:37:39:05
Stacy Bare
We got to be friends just because we were tall at events. And Lynn Hill, if you know who Lynn is. just one of the most amazing climbers in the world. And, people would be like, you know, Stacy took a picture with Lynn because he goes, like, so tall and she saw little and was like, yeah, we haven't heard that like 32 other times in our lives.

00:37:39:07 - 00:37:40:13
Stacy Bare
yeah.

00:37:40:15 - 00:37:42:03
Mark Titus
The original.

00:37:42:05 - 00:38:03:20
Stacy Bare
Yeah. Oh, okay. Cool. I was crossing the in that way. but I followed that. And I will tell people and streaks are important on the one hand, but on the other hand, man, I never fell on my bike. And nobody ever was like I did. Walk your bike back to the start of the trail and try again.

00:38:03:22 - 00:38:20:19
Stacy Bare
They're like, yeah, if you need to walk, walk, ride your bike if you can. Like do you want to, do you want to try that session again? and so I just had a lot of people really, literally pick me up and carry me through a lot of those stages, and help me through that and that community.

00:38:20:19 - 00:38:43:01
Stacy Bare
His, his autonomy. And, I think that, you know, when I was really lucky and again, like, people got to find their ways and, and I think sometimes we're working so hard to find our community that were willing to accept anything. A community tells us one of acceptance and that that's where in any of these times there's an opportunity for real danger.

00:38:43:03 - 00:39:05:18
Stacy Bare
But I was really lucky, and I had a lot of super supportive people. I had a lot of people who didn't ask me why I was an alcoholic, why I had a drug addiction. They just accepted that that's where I was at at this point in my life. that I would tell them the why, if and when I felt it was important and they would ask me that why, if and when they felt I could.

00:39:05:23 - 00:39:22:17
Stacy Bare
It was important for me to tell them that story in that trust. And obviously with a partner with my wife, that makes a ton of sense with other people. It does it, you know, and on a podcast conversation with somebody else in recovery, it's really easy. in a job interview, it's not right. Like this stuff gets out there.

00:39:22:19 - 00:39:41:21
Stacy Bare
I've had people tell me they were worried that my PTSD wasn't, you know, that I'd get stressed out at a job and I couldn't handle it, you know, or I've had people you know, so. So it's real. That fear is real. But I think the more vulnerable we can be with each other and the more honest, the better.

00:39:41:22 - 00:39:58:07
Stacy Bare
I think there's also a point where we can be, you know, I'm also definitely use vulnerability as a coping mechanism and as an unhealthy tool. but, you know, most things that can be good can also be used and incorrectly.

00:39:58:09 - 00:40:27:17
Mark Titus
That's for sure. But, you know, you know what I'm hearing a lot of through this as a thread is, is, resilience getting up again and compassion like the woman in the interview and your friends, giving of themselves and you now giving of yourself, all of that in dedication to healing and to transformation. Halftime. Did you know you could have the world's finest wild salmon shipped directly to your door?

00:40:27:19 - 00:40:56:04
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00:41:18:16 - 00:41:38:20
Mark Titus
Doing good by eating right. That's save spelled backwards. wild.com and eat wild to save wild. Now back to the show. with that, I want to ask you, how did adventure not War come into your consciousness and then come into being?

00:41:38:22 - 00:42:05:06
Stacy Bare
Yeah, I should I should remake that website and put that website back in, back in the electric and electronic conscious. You know, my my real thought there was if the outdoors could be so good for me. Then it was like how good can it be for other veterans. Right. And I think a lot of people who get into helping each other and helping their communities don't always feel like they can like that.

00:42:05:06 - 00:42:26:16
Stacy Bare
They need that help. Right. And also like if I'm doing the helping then I don't need to help myself. And so I think we oftentimes use other people to help our own self regulation. and I, and I steal that idea from we can do hard things, which is a wonderful other podcast out there. but then I was like, well, what would that look like?

00:42:26:21 - 00:42:47:00
Stacy Bare
Because every, every time I got to go to these places, I met really amazing people and I got to see really beautiful things. And now I can recognize some of those as on wonder and community and connection. Right. But at the time, I was just like, you know, I came home from Iraq and first of all, everybody wanted to buy you a beer.

00:42:47:02 - 00:43:11:03
Stacy Bare
Everybody said, thank you for your service, right? I didn't know what they were thanking me for. just I prefer a welcome home because it it kind of like, it still share that you're, it shared that you're grateful at home and it shares with without necessarily forcing me to be like, well, I know you're just saying the right thing because you mean it, and I know you mean it, and I really appreciate that.

00:43:11:05 - 00:43:31:22
Stacy Bare
But you know, I would recommend when people meet a veteran to say, hey, welcome home. I'm glad you're home because nice, because you don't know what my service was like. And the conflict and feelings I have of it. And there are things that I still hold on to that I'm trying to let go of, that I'm not very proud of, or that I wonder if it was the right thing to do.

00:43:32:00 - 00:43:56:05
Stacy Bare
And I worry that you wouldn't be so grateful if you knew those things. I worry that you might think of me very differently than the conversation we're having. If you knew those things, so, you know, but I heard these people said these things about the people and places where I was in war, or cleaning up after war.

00:43:56:10 - 00:44:21:22
Stacy Bare
And I thought, that's just not true. And so I mentioned that war was an opportunity for me to go back to those places with an emphasis on awe and wonder and an emphasis on shining a light on different stories that were there in different communities, were there. So, I've been to three of the places. So Angola, Alex Honnold and I went back to climbing in Goa in 2015.

00:44:22:00 - 00:44:24:03
Stacy Bare
My wife was pregnant with her daughter.

00:44:24:05 - 00:44:29:12
Mark Titus
For clarification, Alex Honnold, could you give a little primer on who he is?

00:44:29:13 - 00:44:49:18
Stacy Bare
He's one of the funniest dudes. He's he's the quirkiest human from Sacramento, California. He also free soloed Yosemite. but he's a really great guy and I don't climb as much anymore. I was actually taking him out the other day. I was like, man, it's been a long time since I talked to Alex because he's he's still climb and, and trees.

00:44:49:18 - 00:45:09:09
Stacy Bare
He's, he's climbing out west and pine trees and Lake Michigan, but just a really great guy. you know, to to be with Alex when he smiles and cracks up and tells jokes is is a real gift. but he said his or my bird? Well, I'm missing the the team as well. that went out with us.

00:45:09:09 - 00:45:27:21
Stacy Bare
It was it was a great team. the film team was also super awesome at Angola 2016, my daughter was born, and, my wife and I were having a conversation after water was born where she said, you know, when are you gonna go back to Iraq? And I said, well, it didn't happen for a while. I was born.

00:45:27:21 - 00:46:02:08
Stacy Bare
So probably when I was in high school and Mackenzie said, well, you know, don't you think it's important that we modeled for our daughter? We have dreams and goals and things that we need to do. and to, yeah, be cautious, but also live in such a way that we work to achieve those dreams. And, this next part, she swears she didn't say, but, was also, if you go and you don't make it home, like I'll be able to remarry and she won't know the difference.

00:46:02:10 - 00:46:05:18
Stacy Bare
And she's always like, I didn't do that in my life.

00:46:05:20 - 00:46:06:07
Mark Titus
That's good.

00:46:06:07 - 00:46:28:14
Stacy Bare
Yeah, but, she was younger, I think. so 2017 with a lot of support from anchor Jake, who was one of my mentors in the North Face and, and passed right before the pandemic. She was amazing, human. I went back, Max Lowe shot at, with, Robin and Matthew. We went to Iraq. And that was a really incredible experience.

00:46:28:14 - 00:46:50:10
Stacy Bare
And then coming home from Iraq, it took me about two years to recover from that. So 2018, I went skiing Japan with some friends, had a really, really great time. And then, met Mr. Zelensky, who made one of my all time favorite movies. at a film festival. And we started chatting and I said, hey, let's, do you want to go to Afghanistan again?

00:46:50:10 - 00:47:12:00
Stacy Bare
Be fun. And he was like, yeah, sure. So, I was able to raise about 50,000 bucks for that first trip. And we went out to Afghanistan in the winter of 20 1819. and it was just an awesome experience. One of the best, easiest expeditions I've ever been. Afghan hosts were just incredible. such wonderful mountains.

00:47:12:00 - 00:47:31:21
Stacy Bare
So many awesome memories of that time. And then, you know, the film got a little delayed. And then there was a pandemic. And then there was the fall of Afghanistan. And and Ben and his partner Katie did so much amazing work, as did there was such a huge network of people working to get Afghans safely out. and so that was incredible.

00:47:31:21 - 00:47:56:13
Stacy Bare
And they had a huge role in all that. and then, yeah, it was 2020 and then 2021 and then got some funding to go shoot, our the main narrator in the film, Ben invited me to go back and shoot with him in his new home as a refugee. And it was also the first day that I was starting this new job, here in Grand Rapids.

00:47:56:13 - 00:48:18:12
Stacy Bare
And so, it was a really tough thing to do, and not go because that had been such my life. But, Serge came back and he and Katie, and they, they linked up with another Emmy Award winning actor and filmmaker. And now that film will debut in Tribeca in a month. So that was Afghanistan, which is awesome.

00:48:18:14 - 00:48:39:15
Stacy Bare
Champions. And Golden Valley, debuted in Tribeca. and I hope to see that production team win all the awards. And we get this out. It's a 90 minute film. but yeah, also, I ended up in Kyrgyzstan in 2020 on behalf of the Afghans in some way. They said, how do we create something that gets people more people here?

00:48:39:17 - 00:49:02:20
Stacy Bare
And so we worked with this amazing group of Kiwi skiers on a couple Dutch folks to do a free ride tour. And now there's a freeride world qualifying in Kazakhstan, and the Cherokees are running their own tours. It's really amazing. but the pandemic halted all that, and now I'm in Jai and I still got two places left to go Bosnia and the former Soviet state of Georgia and Abkhazia.

00:49:02:22 - 00:49:21:11
Stacy Bare
And then I'd really like to kind of take that same lens to Michigan as well. we had the film ready to go last year. but there wasn't enough snow to do a ski film in Michigan last year. So. But that's that's what's left of it. That's not where it's probably the longest, most boring way I've ever told that story.

00:49:21:11 - 00:49:23:04
Stacy Bare
So my apologies to listeners.

00:49:23:07 - 00:49:35:01
Mark Titus
Not at all. I'm so intrigued. I'm in fact, I want to drill in into it just a little bit more. What what is the core mission for adventure, not war? What? How did that even come as a fractal into your mind?

00:49:35:02 - 00:49:58:07
Stacy Bare
Yeah. You know, the core mission is just to share other stories with people that they may not see in, in the media. the beauty of these places, most people probably wouldn't be able to necessarily pick Afghanistan out of a map. Same thing with Iraq. That's why, I mean, each place there's there's 50 states here and all the territories.

00:49:58:09 - 00:50:23:09
Stacy Bare
we live in a huge place. We live in a massive country on a huge, beautiful, gorgeous world. And there's so much negativity bias in the news. Regardless of the political bias in the news, the negativity bias is across mainstream media. It's across, you know, smaller media, not mainstream media. But I just was like, you know, if we can shine a light, even a few people see that light.

00:50:23:09 - 00:50:39:13
Stacy Bare
And I'm like, hey, man, that looks like a really cool place. It looks like you met some really neat people. I never thought of Iraq that way. I never thought of Angola as an adventure destination. Maybe if I thought of it at all. I thought it was a prison in Louisiana. I just we just wanted to create.

00:50:39:15 - 00:51:04:19
Stacy Bare
I just wanted to create some shifts in the way people thought about things. if it was big, awesome. But I think my thought has always been. And I heard it. I heard a some musicians talk about this once. They're like, we just wanted to make good music for our friends. And anything after that, that's bonus. And I just wanted to tell good stories that my buddies and the people I met would be proud of.

00:51:04:22 - 00:51:25:19
Stacy Bare
And anything after that is is bonus. and I think that's what people will see if they go back and watch the watch the old films, or to see the Afghan film that's coming up, champions of the Golden Valley or, you know, or if people want to get involved in or the Bosnia film of the Abkhazia film and those come out to.

00:51:25:21 - 00:51:48:12
Mark Titus
Well, we will make sure to link to those films and, opportunity to see them in our show notes. I'll get that from you. thank you for sharing that. And honestly, it's what we're hoping to do here with this show, too, is, try to create resonance with positive stories that are a little more geared toward. I don't know, the the actual texture of the actual world.

00:51:48:13 - 00:52:14:03
Mark Titus
And speaking of that, I know I long for wild places. Alaska is deep in my soul here in Washington state, the North Cascades, the San Juan Islands, these are these are places that are utterly sacred to me. I heal and I thrive there. But you are heavily involved in creating equitable green spaces in urban areas like like like where you are in Michigan.

00:52:14:04 - 00:52:41:23
Mark Titus
So first of all, why is it so important to have access to urban green spaces? And second, can you actually find could I actually find a semblance of equanimity in a green space, in an urban area commensurate to the serenity and healing you find in wilderness? Maybe those two aren't exactly equal, but I think, you know, you and I were talking a little bit offline about like having a park behind the house here, having some Chinese in your backyard.

00:52:41:23 - 00:52:53:15
Mark Titus
What is is there an opportunity for us? And do we have an obligation as citizens, as good people, to create those green spaces for ourselves and for our communities?

00:52:53:17 - 00:53:19:16
Stacy Bare
Absolutely. I mean, the research, the research is inclusive. I'm outside, you know, green space, blue space, open space, however you want to call it. Right? it's critical. And sharing is really critical. And seeing a tree is really critical and seeing different plants, and Uggs and squirrels and raccoons and deer and moose, these things are absolutely critical.

00:53:19:16 - 00:53:40:03
Stacy Bare
And I think the question of is, you know, are these equal experiences? It's really interesting. One, I spent years of my life going on big multi-day expeditions, I believe, in the three day, in fact, right. Florence Wines or this really beautiful book called the Three Day, in fact, about the 72 hours and what happens after three days. And there's all sorts of working theories we know about long term memory.

00:53:40:03 - 00:54:09:12
Stacy Bare
We know about short term memory. We know less about intermediate memory. But one of the working hypotheses is that basically, your experiences are filtered to the last 48 to 72 hours of your life, right? So if you come off of three days of just the most beautiful fishing, but also some rocky stuff, right? Because like, good memories are always a little punchy, a little wavy, a little rainy, and you come home and you've had this great time with your buddies and somebody, like, hits you with a car.

00:54:09:14 - 00:54:38:18
Stacy Bare
Like, how much equanimity can you? Oftentimes I'm responding like, oh dude, I really sassy ran over my leg. It's going to be a but we're going to get through this. You know, it's it's all right because you've just had this amazing experience. And so your body's really, down your vagus nerve firing correctly all this stuff. Meanwhile, if you spent three days, like buying Seattle traffic, you know, and you, you're reminded that the, you know, the the, you know, Shawn camp was the best Seattle ever had.

00:54:38:18 - 00:54:59:00
Stacy Bare
And when is he ever coming back? And, you know, like, like all these things and, you know, and you, you know, and then you whatever and and then somebody, like, just barely cut you off in traffic and you're like, yeah, right. Like you're like the rage. Right. And it's why Mondays are so hard, right? Because we we didn't quite get that full reset.

00:54:59:02 - 00:55:26:17
Stacy Bare
So I spent all my time and energy on the three days of acting big, large landscapes and everything. But what was happening, Mark, is that I wasn't I wasn't home with my partner, I wasn't home with my kid. But when the pandemic happened and I couldn't do that as much anymore, I was like, what do I do? And you know, sometimes if you're not used to it with a kid, an outdoor experience can be maddening because you might spend the same amount of time as you used to in the outdoors.

00:55:26:17 - 00:55:50:16
Stacy Bare
Like you might go out for a couple hours, but you're going, wow, box if that, right? Because the child sees awe and wonder in these small things that you would normally pass over. And so as I got to know my family again, and so what do I want to do come next? The opportunity to work in these parks and urban spaces in Grand Rapids availed itself to me.

00:55:50:16 - 00:56:11:03
Stacy Bare
And I was like, yeah, heck yeah, I need to learn this. And everything from being able to look outside and see a tree to, while other spaces are different spaces. And I think, absolutely, the experiences that you might have in beautiful landscapes, you're discussing an experience that you might have in the beautiful landscapes that are here in GR, might be really different.

00:56:11:03 - 00:56:32:01
Stacy Bare
They might require a different skill set, a different amount of time, even potentially different clothes to feel comfortable in. What can you find or can you find one or can you find beauty? Can you move your body in a way that's a joyful? Absolutely. Yes. Yep. And that's what's been really fun for me, is also training myself to do that, reminding myself of that.

00:56:32:07 - 00:56:57:10
Stacy Bare
But in Michigan, we have endless wilderness too. Maybe not legislated w wilderness, but you know, tomorrow morning I'll get up and I'll drive a couple of hours long, drop into the Manistee River with my buddy Clyde from Detroit. I know through recovery circles, and we will get in a canoe and we'll, we'll paddle and we'll camp overnight and be home Sunday, and I can't wait.

00:56:57:14 - 00:57:25:14
Stacy Bare
And that's a micro adventure right outside my back door will take less than half a tank of gas to get to and from. So. And the thing that has surprised me the most, we do a lot of trip planning and a I always love seeing when you get somebody to do a mountaintop, when you get somebody down on a field, Glenn City, Montana, or my favorite places in the world, when you run a rapid, on the green River and you see people, right?

00:57:25:14 - 00:57:57:16
Stacy Bare
And they're blissed out, they're stoked, and their brains are sort of from this beautiful way. They kind of understand why surfers are always like, hey, bruh, because their minds just work at this different level. Now. Yeah, same look on people's faces, same conversations that I've had with people after time in the Grand Teton, after falling off surfboards and the Pacific Ocean, as I do when people plant tree in a busy boulevard in Grand Rapids, Michigan, because they've seen something beautiful.

00:57:57:16 - 00:58:21:05
Stacy Bare
They work together, they dug, they've gotten dirty, they've connected in this real physical way to the world and to the people around them and the, the bliss, the wonder. It's right there. I think we do ourselves a disservice by saying the only place to go and do that is in these faraway landscapes. For a lot of us.

00:58:21:05 - 00:58:41:13
Stacy Bare
Or you can only find this in the northwest or wherever. This is always going to look like this. That's not to say that people shouldn't go and visit those things. Those landscapes are incredible. They're mind blowing, they're healing. But you can have an incredible, mind blowing healing experience planting tomatoes and focusing on the little bugs and the birds that you see out there.

00:58:41:13 - 00:59:02:01
Stacy Bare
And that's what you know. If there's one thing large landscape, it's so important to protect those places. But the more we can begin to see wildflowers and milkweed back into our yards, the more we can find those spaces where we can leave a little palace or a little palace to play with just as critical.

00:59:02:03 - 00:59:27:16
Mark Titus
One of my favorite poems of all time. William Blake, to find a world in a grain of sand or a heaven in a wild flower. Hold infinity in the palm of your hand. Or eternity in an hour. Yeah, that's exactly what you're speaking of. And I love it. with the time we have remaining, I want to ask you a couple more questions about getting healthy and whole.

00:59:27:18 - 00:59:57:14
Mark Titus
You have, I think, a pretty radical. And by radical, I mean root like root word, root tapped notion of our health care system and a shift and a pivot that it should go on to help us alleviate the Byzantine complexities of it. And frankly, the misappropriation of, I don't know, sort of a Western, you know, prescribe pharma only approach.

00:59:57:16 - 01:00:06:15
Mark Titus
What is your notion of and action toward what health care should look like moving forward?

01:00:06:17 - 01:00:30:00
Stacy Bare
That's the that's changed a lot over the last really kind a couple of years, as I've seen, like the rise of the wellness industry and its emphasis on individual action to find health and a system that is oftentimes incredibly aggregating. And so rather than group action responsibility, we're trying to pivot to individual action and reaction. And I think that's really challenging.

01:00:30:00 - 01:00:54:16
Stacy Bare
And I think wellness is a dangerous word. And I think it means a lot of different things to different people right now. And I believe in wellness and I believe in health. But I don't know if individual cold plunges are actually the way to health or infrared, you know, infrared saunas, I mean, these things are all nice, but if they're disconnected from community, right, we're not going to be successful.

01:00:54:18 - 01:01:22:02
Stacy Bare
And I think one of the biggest challenges with a health care system is, is it's driven towards, growth and profit, because in America we have everything driven towards growth and profit, right. Like a lot of the military industrial companies that are supplying our soldiers, which aren't really what they are. And as a soldier on the best equipment, if they're traded on the stock exchange, they're legally required to support the growth of their stockholders, not to support residents.

01:01:22:02 - 01:01:42:19
Stacy Bare
And a lot of or not, a lot of our hospital systems are non profit. That just means they're not paying out stakeholders. It doesn't mean that they're not paying individuals or board members or other things. You know I think in income inequality is a huge issue. And we've been told that competition in this space is going to create better health care.

01:01:42:20 - 01:02:12:10
Stacy Bare
We've been told that it's going to create, better options for pharmaceuticals, but it's also given us opioids. It's also, given us, I think, overprescription of certain things that make the good in that farm. and so I think, you know, for example, during the pandemic, I understood a lot of vaccine hesitancy, especially coming out of the military and watching my friends who got the the anthrax vaccine really struggle years later.

01:02:12:14 - 01:02:36:09
Stacy Bare
Right? or if you had run ins or you had family related to the Tuskegee Airmen or the opioid epidemic, and somebody was like, oh, you got to take this now, do I what does that going to mean to me? and it's not I believe in vaccines, but there's just this larger challenging of of fear and conversations that, that are being had.

01:02:36:09 - 01:02:55:01
Stacy Bare
And I think you're seeing it with doctors who are burning out, too. And it's hard to get doctors, it's hard to get GP's. It's hard to get nurse practitioners right now. so I think figuring out how we create a more humane health care system is really important. 90% right of health happens outside of 95% of health happens outside of hospital walls.

01:02:55:03 - 01:03:11:23
Stacy Bare
So I think to me, we've got to have a health care system. And I was talking with a friend of mine who's doing some really incredible work around mental health and one of the things we were talking about is teaching people how to code and teaching people how to select foods that nourishes them. Right? Like how many times have you heard somebody say, oh, we're going to have a healthy dinner?

01:03:12:01 - 01:03:31:19
Stacy Bare
It's like, I don't know if I want a healthy dinner, but a healthy dinner means you're having a good time and how to find it. You're having a conversation and you're feeling connected to people, and it's fine if that's like, you know, undressed, unseasoned quinoa. But it's also fine if sometimes it's like fried chicken and maple sirup and a waffle.

01:03:31:19 - 01:03:56:17
Stacy Bare
Right? Like if I do, one of those things have everything in moderation, including moderation. Right? Right, right, right. So I think there's a health care system where we recognize the value of recess. we're lucky our daughter goes to a school where she has three recesses a day. and that's sacrosanct. And that school part is really important, and music is really important.

01:03:56:19 - 01:04:18:03
Stacy Bare
and, and that's what I want to see, a health care system that is, if we're paying for anything, I think I think and then there's always a challenge to modify. Right. Because we've seen that with insulin prices. Right. It's a necessity. So we know we can charge it out of it. And yet music is a necessity. And we're not charging for it.

01:04:18:07 - 01:04:42:03
Stacy Bare
And why aren't we paying for it or why isn't there more of that in the system? Yeah. so yeah, I'd love to see a health care system where you get a prescription to play a trumpet or paint a picture, or go outdoors, and you can take that and you can get a discount, you know, a sturdy pair of jeans or a rain jacket so you can get out on a day like today.

01:04:42:05 - 01:05:19:15
Mark Titus
Yeah, I know you. I was taken by your suggestion. over, over the, you know, some time here, that being in the world itself, in the outdoors, in nature, should be a part of a successful health care system, in fact, should potentially, you know, be funded inside of that system. and that was pretty novel and interesting and I think radical in that sense of the rooted word of our connection to being a part of the natural world, not separate from but actually we are nature.

01:05:19:17 - 01:05:30:13
Mark Titus
we're here, we're on this planet. We're made. We get to borrow these bodies from the Earth for a while, you know? Can you speak to that a little bit about, like, totally degraded?

01:05:30:15 - 01:05:52:16
Stacy Bare
I do think we can integrate these things. Right. And I think, like, figuring out you know, can we do therapy outside too? Right. As an argument, can we have, you know, when the BLM, the Bureau of Land Management leases out land to minerals, you can keep extending that indefinitely, and we're willing to subsidize that. And we do subsidize, hiking and and trail riding a little bit.

01:05:52:16 - 01:06:19:05
Stacy Bare
But I think if we want real health and if our health care companies are nonprofits, then how do we get health care companies to invest in public lands, to increase trails, to increase access so that you can get on your Mark II, this health care bus that takes you to park, right. But when you're that, and even beyond just the pay to engage piece or that that the clinic is paying you right to an insurance carrier or whatever.

01:06:19:07 - 01:06:46:17
Stacy Bare
I think it's also making like making exits to our buildings. Like, why isn't the exit to a hospital a trailhead? Why isn't the exit to a school, a trailhead, a bus stop, trailhead? So I think that's where I would love to see our health care companies really moving towards, instead of sponsoring the wall, at the, at Bar Field, can they sponsor, you know, can they sponsor a map on the side of a bus?

01:06:46:19 - 01:07:03:06
Stacy Bare
Can they sponsor these things that are going to get people out and get healthy? And I think that's where there's this big shift right now in this world, too. There's that lack of community, which I think for a lot of people in connection, which is creating a lot of these issues. There's a lack of knowledge on how to get there.

01:07:03:08 - 01:07:30:20
Stacy Bare
And I think you're seeing this split in this generation. You and I are about the same age where us and older. It's like we want the people behind us to have to suffer in the way we did. And we turned out okay. No, we didn't, but they're not willing to put up with it. And that's why I think you also see another split that's happening in this world as people are willing to start, like, you know, younger folks are like, yeah, I need wellness, I need health, I need time off to go to that park.

01:07:30:20 - 01:07:54:10
Stacy Bare
I need time off to paint. or space in my life to paint. And I think that's where, like, you know, I love to see insurance companies getting more involved in the protection and engagement around public lands and building of trails and lands, conservation, and prescribing the outdoors. But I think, you know, there's it's so hard you go down into so many nuances and then you're like, you don't want to make any absolute statement because it's going to come out.

01:07:54:10 - 01:08:16:09
Stacy Bare
But like we also got, commodify the outdoors in the way that we commodified pain that led to the opioid epidemic. But at the same time, you know, honestly, if somebody was in the same way that somebody was like a pill factory, if somebody was like, man, you go there, they'll just hand you a bike. Hell yeah, man, you know, you know, in the same way that like, oh, it's really easy to get a pill, you know, at this strip mall.

01:08:16:11 - 01:08:37:06
Stacy Bare
I mean, imagine if it was that easy to get a fishing rod, if that, that easy to get hiking boots, that easy to get a backpack, that easy to get somebody who can show you how to paddle a canoe. Like that's where I think we can get. I think the healthcare community can get us there. if if we're really interested in health, I.

01:08:37:08 - 01:08:56:04
Mark Titus
I couldn't agree more. And, look, I think this is a a good place to park it for today, but, man, this is a conversation. I want to continue with you. I hope maybe we can pick this up again a little bit down the trail. here on this show, we always have a little bonus round, which is sort of just a a fun little send off.

01:08:56:04 - 01:09:23:12
Mark Titus
But, using your imagination here, let's just say, everything was going to go away and there was a fire roaring down the mountain. And of course, you already got Wilder and your wife out and your critters. but you could only take one physical thing. What would that one thing be? That you would save? If anything, physically.

01:09:23:14 - 01:09:31:20
Stacy Bare
But it depends on it. My daughter grabbed a dollar and because that's so important to her. So she didn't have the doll, then I definitely could grab the doll.

01:09:31:22 - 01:09:34:16
Mark Titus
What a damn.

01:09:34:18 - 01:10:01:07
Stacy Bare
I think the one thing that I grabbed is our winning out. Because we just had such a wonderful. We had an outdoor wedding. Surprise, surprise. we had 100 people together who were there. That group of folks will probably never get together again. It was so much love. It was so much fun. So few of those photos are found anywhere digitally, and it was just such a great reminder of all the things that led up to that moment.

01:10:01:09 - 01:10:13:13
Stacy Bare
And just a it was a really, really wonderful moment. So definitely grab our wedding album as I head out the door. The rest of the stuff, you know, I got a Crow mountain bike. It'll be fun.

01:10:13:15 - 01:10:38:03
Mark Titus
Well, I look, I share your I share your thoughts about our wedding was similar outdoors magic never to be repeated. It was wonderful. one now about you. One physical trait or one. One spiritual, mental, emotional trait about you. If you could only take one and you wanted to save it for future generations, what would that one trait about yourself be?

01:10:38:05 - 01:10:58:09
Stacy Bare
I love that question. I'm super sensitive. I think that's a positive. I think a lot of us in recovery, that's why we have we have superpowers and we don't know what to do with them. we don't live in a world right now that is super interested in super powers, especially super powers used in a team setting.

01:10:58:14 - 01:11:22:01
Stacy Bare
I think that's why oftentimes we end up, using an abusing substance because we're trying to shut off the super power, so we don't know how to put it. So, you know, I guess the emotion would be that I'm a realist. like, I feel pretty deeply. but I think I had a friend of mine tell me my superpower storytelling, and I think I love that.

01:11:22:02 - 01:11:38:11
Stacy Bare
That's the nicest thing anybody has ever said to me. And I think that's what I would, pass on to other people, tell a story telling narrative, and that's, you know, I talked a lot about I think this is the big issue. But I do think there's such an issue right now. We talked a little bit about climate change before the show.

01:11:38:11 - 01:12:02:12
Stacy Bare
The climate has changed. So I guess the thing that I would want people to take away is create a narrative that other people can see themselves in. It's better than the narrative. We're living it today, even if that means we lose things we love. we can create something better. The future is better. The opportunities in front of us are better than they've ever been.

01:12:02:14 - 01:12:19:11
Stacy Bare
It's so exciting to be alive right now to think about that. That doesn't discount the horror. Yeah, but I think the horror is happening because it's trying to stop these beautiful things that are coming.

01:12:19:12 - 01:12:37:22
Mark Titus
well, Stacy Bear, thank you for that perspective for one to leave on and for joining the show today and for your great work in the world. truly an inspiration for me. And, I know it will be for our listeners. take good care for now. And, we'll plan on seeing you down the trail.

01:12:38:00 - 01:12:46:03
Stacy Bare
Yeah, absolutely. Market's been super fun. Like, are we sure we didn't go to fourth grade together? This has been a really easy, easy conversation. It's been super fun, man.

01:12:46:05 - 01:12:54:17
Mark Titus
It's possible. It's possible. You know, there's there's a bit of a mystery in my family from the West, so. But we'll, we'll pick this up another time and take good care for now.

01:12:54:19 - 01:12:55:08
Stacy Bare
The camera.

01:12:55:12 - 01:13:27:18
Music
But how do you say what you love?
But how do you say what you love?
But how do you say what you love?
But how do you say what you love?

Mark Titus
Thank you for listening. To Save What You Love. If you like what you're hearing, you can help keep these conversations coming your way by giving us a rating on whatever platform you're listening from and leaving a comment on Apple Podcasts. It really helps get the word out. Check out photos on our Instagram feed. We're at Save What You Love podcast, and you can get links from today's featured guest in the show notes of this episode.

01:13:51:21 - 01:14:20:17
Mark Titus
Join our growing community by subscribing to our newsletter at evaswild.com and then clicking on connect in the upper corner. You'll get exclusive offers on wild salmon shipped to your door, and notifications about upcoming guests and more great content on the way. That's at evaswild.com. The word save spelled backwards. wild.com. This episode was produced by Emilie Firn and edited by Patrick Troll.

01:14:20:19 - 01:14:26:16
Mark Titus
Original music was created by Whiskey Class. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you all down the trail.