Save What You Love with Mark Titus

00:00:00:07 - 00:00:33:00
Mark Titus
Welcome to Say What You Love. I'm Mark Titus. Today's episode, I get to sit down with Zach Carothers from the band Portugal The Man. This is an incredibly entertaining episode where we get to hear about things like Zach's most intense and scariest moment on stage during a live performance. Fishing in winter, during the middle of a pandemic, and releasing a long sought after and awaited album of treasures from an earlier time when the band was starting out.

00:00:33:02 - 00:01:04:11
Mark Titus
Also, we dig into Zach and his band Mates Foundation, which is now called the PTM Foundation. They're working tirelessly on indigenous rights and on social justice causes that are aligned with what we're doing here. On the Save What You Love podcast. What a treat. It was such a pleasure to sit down with Zach. I hope you find it the same and if you are enjoying this podcast, I would love it if you'd consider giving us a rating on Apple Podcasts and or writing a review in your own words.

00:01:04:13 - 00:01:28:19
Mark Titus
It really helps get the word out about this show. And if you're starting to look for a gift for Father's Day, head on over to evaswild.com, where you can pick up a summer salmon experience kit. In that kit your dad will receive to frozen filets of flash frozen wild Bristol Bay sockeye salmon for three consecutive months. He'll also receive both of my documentaries.

00:01:28:19 - 00:01:54:04
Mark Titus
The breach and the Wild, as downloadable to own Forever files that you can watch up on your TV at home. You'll get a Tom Douglas salmon rub and also a recyclable VR set of goggles where your dad and you can take a VR trip in Bristol Bay, stand on a commercial fishing boat, fly fish in a river and hook into a rainbow trout.

00:01:54:06 - 00:02:20:21
Mark Titus
It's pretty cool. Anyway, go on over to Eva's welcome. That's save spelled backwards Wild dot com and check it out. And I hope you enjoy this episode with Zach. We'll see you next week.

00:02:21:02 - 00:02:44:18
Music
How do you save what you love?
When the world is burning down?
How do you save what you love?
When pushes come to shove.
How do you say what you love?
When things are upside down.
How do you say what you love?
When times are getting tough.

00:02:44:20 - 00:02:46:14
Mark Titus
Zach Carothers, welcome.

00:02:46:15 - 00:02:48:07
Zach Carothers
How you doing, man? Good to see it.

00:02:48:09 - 00:03:00:07
Mark Titus
It's good to see you. I'm well, you know, just one day at a time plodding through COVID here and we're God. I can see some light on the horizon. Yeah, but how about things down in in Oregon where you are?

00:03:00:08 - 00:03:17:20
Zach Carothers
Yeah, things are. Things are getting good. People are starting to get Vaxxed. There's talk of things are kind of, I don't know, figuring things out, you know, it's not really going back to normal, but we're creating a new normal and yeah, things are starting to fall into place.

00:03:17:22 - 00:03:24:09
Mark Titus
Well, speaking of falling into place, I understand you are going through the travails of building out a home. How's that going?

00:03:24:10 - 00:03:27:21
Zach Carothers
Yeah, very slowly.

00:03:27:23 - 00:03:28:23
Mark Titus
Yeah? Yeah.

00:03:29:01 - 00:03:51:04
Zach Carothers
As you've been in my place, we're out on rivers. We have to deal with a lot of floodplain. FEMA permits repairing and habitat codes, which I totally agree with. And. But, yeah, there's just been a lot of things with design. There's a lot of rules. And I get the rules, but we're just. Yeah, waiting on permits from the city.

00:03:51:04 - 00:04:09:09
Zach Carothers
I've been waiting for like a year. It's a nightmare. I haven't had a kitchen in like a year, but my friends are in Spain, so we're house sitting at a very nice place in the city, which I, you know, I like being outside of the city, but it's nice to have a kitchen and a nice shower. Pretty good.

00:04:09:09 - 00:04:15:17
Zach Carothers
Pretty good. I can't see any studs. This house, moldy drywall.

00:04:15:19 - 00:04:21:16
Mark Titus
God. All that finished stuff. Yeah, Kitchens are good. Sounds like a whole lot of adulting. Really?

00:04:21:18 - 00:04:26:09
Zach Carothers
Yeah, it really is. I'm not particularly good at that.

00:04:26:11 - 00:04:39:13
Mark Titus
Well, speaking of right, did you. We got to hang out in November, and we were just talking about still heading. Yeah. Did you actually get to get out and swing some flies over the winter?

00:04:39:17 - 00:05:07:13
Zach Carothers
I did. I did quite a bit. I got, I hooked three this winter and what. Yeah. And I did well because numbers are not good. It's a really sad day for Steelhead this year. I went up to the to the Olympic Peninsula for the first time, kind of after all the rivers are closed. I'm just walking around and look at all these beautiful, beautiful waters that you can fish anymore.

00:05:07:13 - 00:05:13:19
Zach Carothers
And then yeah, it's like it's it's a bummer, man. We got to take care of our fish.

00:05:13:21 - 00:05:48:06
Mark Titus
Yeah. You know, I got out, too, and I. I used finally my Bob Mizer seven weight, two handed piece of glory that I wields rather clumsily. But I actually learned how to get a fly out there and swing it. And I did. I did hook a fish and lost it 20 seconds later. And I'm told by my my mentors and gurus in this new addiction that I have that that was pretty good actually, for a thousand cats.

00:05:48:11 - 00:06:08:08
Zach Carothers
Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Again, just seeing a fish signs of a fish is very, very good. And that yeah, I lost a few to but yeah, I got a couple this year and I'll catch in the lease. But it was a boy. It was fun on the, on the two hand or two on the spay as well. And yeah.

00:06:08:12 - 00:06:11:05
Zach Carothers
I'm addicted so that Yeah.

00:06:11:07 - 00:06:26:16
Mark Titus
Yeah it's, it's, it is the thing that I want to pour all, all the energy into now and you know there could be worse things. Yeah absolutely. As we know for sure. For sure. Yeah. Well gosh, I know that we could go into steelhead.

00:06:26:16 - 00:06:27:00
Zach Carothers
Talk.

00:06:27:00 - 00:06:49:17
Mark Titus
All day long. For real. You know, maybe. Maybe we'll come back and do that another time. But, you know, we're going to wade into the waters of your art here soon enough. But for our listeners who only know you by your music or even one or two of your songs, tell us your story. Where'd you grow up? How did PTM come together?

00:06:49:19 - 00:06:54:05
Mark Titus
What stoked the fire in you to fight for the things you love through your work?

00:06:54:07 - 00:07:19:03
Zach Carothers
That's all it was, all kind of time and just pressure cooking. But basically we're a band from Alaska, or half the band is from Alaska and from a small town called Wasilla, about an hour north of Anchorage. We've been a band for like 16 or 17 years, far too long. We kind of moved down to Oregon and we love playing music we loved.

00:07:19:05 - 00:07:36:04
Zach Carothers
We're just kind of hungry to see the world. And so that's what started us. We went down to Portland and we started seeing all these small bands, bands I've never heard of from a town I've never heard of at a bar for $3 and they just get in the van and go like, God, you can just go on tour.

00:07:36:04 - 00:07:55:06
Zach Carothers
You don't need Stage Lights or Learjet or any of that shit. So we just wanted to see the world and so we just went out there and started seeing things and we never stopped. And finally, I guess the rest of the world gave in and decided that they'd like us. And, and yeah, we just.

00:07:55:08 - 00:07:57:15
Mark Titus
We beat them into submission yet.

00:07:57:15 - 00:08:20:05
Zach Carothers
And pretty much, pretty much there's like fine, even a broken clock's right twice a day. So we got a hit on every other band and yeah, we're just, we're just very persistent, kept putting out music and yeah, through then we just, we met a lot of people, we walked a lot of streets, drink a lot of drinks, met a lot of people and heard a lot of stories.

00:08:20:05 - 00:08:50:17
Zach Carothers
And so it's been kind of cool to kind of find reason in what we do. So we've kind of jumped very deep into the, the, the advocacy thing and just kind of showing up for people and sticking up for what's right because we were doing a lot of stuff and we realized sometimes we started running out of reasons, you know, And yeah, so we just started finding a little more meaning in the things we did.

00:08:50:19 - 00:09:14:11
Mark Titus
Well, my, my guess is thanks for sharing that. My guess is maybe there were some ants in your collective pants as a band this last year. Yeah. What was life like working as a working band? pre-COVID. I know, I know. On the inside because I tried to track you guys down for stuff for the wild Back in 2019, you were working your ass off.

00:09:14:13 - 00:09:21:20
Mark Titus
And then how did that go from 100 miles an hour down to like, what was that all like?

00:09:21:22 - 00:10:05:15
Zach Carothers
Honestly, that part was awesome. I yeah, I don't I'm not a fan of the pandemic, what it's done to the economy. And a lot of people are hurting. But I tend to find the bright side of things and we haven't spent as much time at home since we were teenagers and it was really nice to just kind of slow down and really think about what we're doing and and yeah, definitely we got to, we got to focus more on our foundation and try to like really have to get creative in that world because originally with our foundation to kind of support Indigenous or elevate Indigenous voices and community resilience, their resilience is that it's pretty

00:10:05:15 - 00:10:27:21
Zach Carothers
simple. We're just going to go play shows and then, you know, make a percentage of like a percentage of the profits. We're going to go to donations. And it was all pretty simple. And since we couldn't play shows, we couldn't really make money and we had to find it's a whole different aspects of fundraising that we didn't know about, but we learned a lot.

00:10:27:21 - 00:10:50:19
Zach Carothers
And it was it was a lot of fun. That's pretty much mostly what we've been working on this last year. Obviously it was really nice to kind of be forced to just calm down and we're kind of workaholics where we're busy bodies or border collies and we kind of it's kind of nice to just sit and stay.

00:10:50:21 - 00:11:27:07
Mark Titus
Yeah, I, I agree. I mean, you know, with everything you said, like, obviously this is a terrible thing that everybody has had to endure and, you know, God bless the souls that we lost. But being forced to slow down, I think has been a good thing here to do a lot of discernment. TIME And, you know, what are the stories, you know, I want to tell what in this little snap of the fingers of of existence of consciousness here on earth and and yeah so you know, good on you.

00:11:27:07 - 00:11:54:01
Mark Titus
And by the way, I think that wanting to see the world and see things is about as pure a reason for starting a band as I can think of or I've ever heard of. So I think that's fantastic. So back in February, you released the long awaited Oregon City Sessions. And yeah, I know you dug from the vault a bit and kind of rehashed and re experienced and, you know, renewed those things.

00:11:54:01 - 00:11:58:10
Mark Titus
But what, what made that experience fresh and vital for you guys?

00:11:58:12 - 00:12:32:17
Zach Carothers
I thought it was fun for a long time. We didn't want to put it out, which is why it just got talked up forever because we were always just moved to quit. We'd film something, we'd mix it, and by the time that it got all ready to put out, we're like, we're playing these new songs now. We're just moving a little too quick and like, you know, we're a little bit better now and then, I don't know, watching it again and you're being forced to not play any shows and just kind of digging through content to kind of give to people.

00:12:32:17 - 00:12:56:14
Zach Carothers
And we talked about releasing this for a long time. And when I looked at it again, I really liked that it was a performance where there was no audience, where it was just us. You know, we weren't headbanging or dancing around or trying to look cool for anybody. We were just sitting in a room looking at each other, communicating and jamming and playing whatever.

00:12:56:14 - 00:13:22:13
Zach Carothers
We felt like we didn't have to worry about pleasing anybody or doing anything. And I thought there was something like really pure and special about that, and it was just kind of a sneak peek into our basement kind of stuff. You know what we would always grow up doing? And it just brought me back to a kind of a time of blissful ignorance when I didn't.

00:13:22:15 - 00:13:41:23
Zach Carothers
There's a lot of things I didn't know and a lot of things were more pure. And just like every every time we go in with a producer or we talk to somebody, you know, you gain knowledge and but sometimes you lose just that pure basic instinct. That is it. And there was a lot of that going on there.

00:13:41:23 - 00:14:07:00
Zach Carothers
That was that was just kind of what we did naturally. And and not to say that anything we do now is different or or, you know, for any other reason. We just we've got a lot more going on our head now. And back then, all we wanted to do is get in a room and play music and it didn't matter if there are people there or not.

00:14:07:00 - 00:14:28:03
Zach Carothers
And we're just lucky that people would come and watch us and we still are. But it was just a yeah, this is a whole different thing. We it was before we, we learned and thought about a lot of aspects of this industry and I thought it was something like really cool and a special like somebody just like, you know, looking in our diary or something like that.

00:14:28:05 - 00:14:45:00
Mark Titus
Yeah. And dear listener, if you're hearing a squeaking sound in the background, that that's not a sample from Pam's new record that that's actually Wilford Brimley. Yes, you too. Wilford Brimley being Zach's pup from the COVID pup.

00:14:45:02 - 00:14:46:15
Zach Carothers
He's a beautiful.

00:14:46:15 - 00:14:47:06
Mark Titus
There is.

00:14:47:09 - 00:14:59:05
Zach Carothers
Is a little Britney and a.k.a Willie smiles and and he does everything he doesn't like me doing anything that doesn't directly involved him.

00:14:59:07 - 00:15:09:07
Mark Titus
Yeah well as long as you know as long as you I.D. the bizarre noises and it's, you know, we're not worried that's coming from your stomach or.

00:15:09:09 - 00:15:11:23
Zach Carothers
Whatever it.

00:15:12:01 - 00:15:44:12
Mark Titus
You know, I was thinking about that when I was thinking about Oregon City sessions. Like, you know, how you have those dreams where you like, you go back to high school or something like, yeah, you know, Yeah. And you're like, it's it's the same sort of, but like completely different in a way. And, and I always have the feeling of kind of melancholy of like, you know, there's like I don't belong here anymore, but there's something I don't know, like, did you get any of that sort of feeling when you were working on, on this piece?

00:15:44:14 - 00:15:45:14
Mark Titus

00:15:45:16 - 00:16:08:11
Zach Carothers
No, I just, I know, but I totally know what you meant. I know I didn't. I didn't feel it with this piece, but I did record by me, and. But I do know what you mean. It was. Yeah, it was. It was something like, I'm past this, but I can still look back at this with. Without too much critique, and I can't look.

00:16:08:12 - 00:16:33:17
Zach Carothers
I can't. Yeah, I can't be like, I wish we would never do something like that. Now I'm like, we can all say that. Like, you know, I've got tattoos that I totally regret and it doesn't matter. It's like that was just a snapshot into my life at that time. And if I can't look back and laugh at all the things then that, you know, if I was always smart and always cool and I was like, What's the point of living?

00:16:33:17 - 00:16:53:13
Zach Carothers
What's the point of growing and getting like, you got to you got to evolve and you got to look back at yourself and be able to laugh a little bit. That was how all of this is just going back and talk and talking with all the guys about, you know, just how we look like a bunch of wet dogs and we're all dead at 70.

00:16:53:13 - 00:17:06:19
Zach Carothers
The drug dealers, we just looked terrible. And it was it was really funny to just like, make fun of everybody. You know, it's about the best parts of me.

00:17:06:21 - 00:17:32:02
Mark Titus
Well, yeah, I you know, kudos to you. I think that takes some courage, honestly. Like, I dig around through my old vault of, like, first attempted scripts and, you know, really bad poetry and, you know, it takes a little bit of courage and maybe a little bit of maturity to come back and say, you know, I'm not going to judge that guy.

00:17:32:04 - 00:17:49:06
Mark Titus
I'm going to, you know, embrace young Mark with some compassion and and say, hey, like like you said, laugh at it. Like, this is this is me from another time. And and it wouldn't be me now without that. So yeah I think it's fantastic.

00:17:49:09 - 00:18:07:03
Zach Carothers
Yeah. And yeah, like I said, and then this one I just like I came to grips with this and that, that. Well, there's plenty of high school poetry and shit. And I was like, I was like, my God, I can't, I haven't found that stuff. And yeah, I would. I would cringe deeply at a lot of the things said.

00:18:07:05 - 00:18:08:01
Mark Titus
my God.

00:18:08:03 - 00:18:15:21
Zach Carothers
And then and when attempting to be deep or thoughtful or it's it's so funny, though. But it is. It is what makes.

00:18:15:21 - 00:18:17:18
Mark Titus
You.

00:18:17:20 - 00:18:37:08
Zach Carothers
I don't know. Everything is, but it's what started as being advocates and fighting for anything like when I was a teenager and I was listening to the Dead Kennedys and the Agent Orange and I was listened to much like punk from the Eighties and from California. And I'm in Wasilla, Alaska, and I didn't know what machine I was raging against, but I was.

00:18:37:08 - 00:18:38:10
Mark Titus
Just was.

00:18:38:10 - 00:19:00:22
Zach Carothers
Raging against the machine, man. And and it took me a long time to figure out what those machines actually are and what they they do. And and you also have as you get older, you know, I was like, shit, I'm part of the problem. I'm part of the machine and everything feeds everything. And and that's a whole other thing you have to deal with.

00:19:00:22 - 00:19:19:17
Zach Carothers
But that's yeah, that's how you get into just finding the things you care about. Yeah. Communities like water, like, you know, like these things that you, that you really go for and you find out what matters. It all starts with a feeling and then you figure out the reasons and stuff afterwards.

00:19:19:19 - 00:20:02:04
Mark Titus
Absolutely. And it's so hard when you're seemingly rudderless. You know, I don't know in particular, for me it was twenties. You know, my twenties were just brutal. And I got a mighty I can't, you know, even really imagine navigating twenties right now our dear Tyler's in his twenties and you know he's kicking ass but it's it's tough out there man like you know tough going on that feeling part that takes some tremendous faith and some tremendous courage and some, you know, some real chutzpah, you know, to to, like, follow that river.

00:20:02:06 - 00:20:25:12
Mark Titus
Because, you know, at the time, you you just don't know, like we're like you're saying like you're coming a where you becoming aware of my role in all this And like, how can I contribute and where is this all going to end up? And I don't know, man, I was I was pretty stoked to get to get past twenties were fantastic in other ways, but like, you know, into the thirties and forties were safe now.

00:20:25:13 - 00:20:26:11
Mark Titus
Been pretty good.

00:20:26:12 - 00:20:49:01
Zach Carothers
Yeah. Yeah. Some stuff figured out and I do like it's fun to reminisce about that, about that stuff, but it is just like I do, just like all young people. I definitely want to say this. I really wish I had listened to my gut more and I did, and I definitely made choices that were not normal and scary and it ends up working out.

00:20:49:01 - 00:21:04:15
Zach Carothers
But a lot of times it doesn't. But still, just like I do believe that people have like a really good sense of direction with themselves and they don't listen to themselves enough and really do like really listen to your body, listen to your gut and not so much your brain. I feel like your body always tells the truth.

00:21:04:15 - 00:21:28:00
Zach Carothers
Your brain always lies to you, but somewhere in there is a real mix of like what you're supposed to do. And just like everybody knows, like just doing the right thing, it's like everybody knows what feels good. And I didn't I didn't find that out. And I fought myself with a lot of indecision and overthinking things. And I was I could have been a lot more effective in life.

00:21:28:00 - 00:21:34:17
Zach Carothers
I learned that later, and I wish I learned that way sooner. I could have done a lot more, done a lot more stuff.

00:21:34:19 - 00:21:56:01
Mark Titus
Well, we're going to have a specific question about this at the end of the show. But yeah, look for me, I remember those, you know, early mid twenties. And, you know, if there's one thing I could tell that guy, tell young 20 something mark is like, Stop worrying so goddamn much. Yeah. You know, about about things that are out of your control and.

00:21:56:01 - 00:22:02:05
Mark Titus
And follow your gut. Follow their instinct. Follow the river that's been laid out for you. So I think that's really good advice.

00:22:02:05 - 00:22:03:19
Zach Carothers
Absolutely.

00:22:03:21 - 00:22:16:01
Mark Titus
Well, all right. So now on to some of the big work here. You guys created the PTM Foundation. So what's it about and what's your North Star in that work?

00:22:16:02 - 00:22:46:05
Zach Carothers
Generally, we basically are just we're looking at a lot of issues as far as like community resilience, mental health, environmental things, youth empowerment, but all looking at through an indigenous lens. And it's it's basically elevating indigenous voices and we just tackle it's just a way for us to get organized to do a lot of the things we wanted to do.

00:22:46:05 - 00:23:18:01
Zach Carothers
We were already kind of running around and making a lot of friends and trying to show up for people. But we're highly dysfunctional, you know, scatterbrained artists. And so we were just saying yes to everything. We're flying all over the place and we were really working a lot and not getting a ton done. And so we brought in some organization we started an actual foundation where we can kind of help without necessarily all six of us being somewhere.

00:23:18:03 - 00:23:34:11
Zach Carothers
And we can organize. We got a we got a director, we got a board of advisors, and they just like really keep everything organized, get on emails and we just get to kind of cast on that a little, a little wider. And it's all.

00:23:34:11 - 00:23:35:11
Mark Titus
About.

00:23:35:13 - 00:24:00:05
Zach Carothers
It's really all about networking and a lot of the stuff that we do is just connection, which is, which is really good. A lot of time, a lot of times, which is all the people that we meet, you know, somebody that have an issue in one community, we're like, actually that sounds sort of familiar to a friend that we have a started an organization and that's kind of solving that problem.

00:24:00:05 - 00:24:24:19
Zach Carothers
Maybe you guys could talk and take some of that infrastructure and see if that if that works over here and yeah, we're just kind of helping people help themselves and we're learning a lot. It's a lot of really rad indigenous partnerships and it's been super cool. We've learned so much and just made amazing friends and really been really, really awesome.

00:24:24:21 - 00:24:38:07
Mark Titus
Well, so you've touched on it a little, Zach, but where do you place Indigenous sovereignty? Learning from Indigenous wisdom and social justice for tribes and First nations on your list of priorities?

00:24:38:09 - 00:25:14:18
Zach Carothers
Pretty, pretty goddamn high. And especially over the last year when we haven't been doing any shows, it's kind of been all we've focused on. And it's yeah, it's just really take it has taken over and it's given us something to learn about and and fight for. And there's just so many things that we didn't know and and that's what's, that's what's kind of amazing about life in general is that there's just so much stuff out there and so many life changing things.

00:25:14:18 - 00:25:35:01
Zach Carothers
And it's just I don't I don't like to shame people in in the in the ally world and in the advocacy world. There's a lot of kind of pretension and there is a lot of like, you're not doing this right, You're not doing that. There's a lot of kind of shame in it and stuff and I think that stops.

00:25:35:01 - 00:25:57:22
Zach Carothers
A lot of people have stopped me from doing a lot of things early and I really think we've got to kind of stop that. Just realize that like, you never know what you know. I didn't know that I did a lot of things that were you know, I realize were hurtful after the fact. And then but I just I didn't know I was I was blind and ignorant to that.

00:25:58:00 - 00:26:29:22
Zach Carothers
And then once I saw something that dealt with the one of the big turning points with the with indigenous cultures was, yes, we were always playing Coachella in festivals and there's always a lot of, you know, white people and headdresses and warpaint and stuff like that. And I was that was a little weird, but I didn't pay much mind until we actually saw a Native guy explain it to somebody who said that, look, that's offensive, that that, you know, that hurts us.

00:26:29:22 - 00:26:51:04
Zach Carothers
That's a that's a big sign. That's a you know, it just it's not your culture. It's it's kind of rude, messed up. And that just changed me and John saw that. And we're just like, we're like, totally. And then from that moment on was like, yeah, that little thing. Just seeing that changed my life because most people don't want to hurt people's feelings.

00:26:51:04 - 00:27:35:17
Zach Carothers
Most people don't want to do that. And cultural appropriation is, you know, there's a there's a sliding scale where it's, you know, it's definitely weird and it's it's very complex and, you know, some things and there's no real rules on it. It's just some things are done with grace and respect and some things aren't. And I don't know why, but there's just like there's some things like the Beastie Boys that are three white Jewish rappers from New York who somehow just completely respect black culture and hip hop and do it amazingly with taste.

00:27:35:19 - 00:27:55:10
Zach Carothers
And there's some people that just completely disrespected and I don't know how to like, there's no real like formula on how you prove what's one or the other, which is everybody kind of knows and you're like, All right, one is cool and one is definitely not cool. And that's interesting stuff for sure.

00:27:55:12 - 00:28:19:13
Mark Titus
It is. And I love that you're continually learning. And I would echo that. And speaking of Echo, like I got a growing friendship with Colleen Echo Hawk, who is running for Seattle City mayor here. She was on the show a few episodes ago. We're actually having lunch today and, you know, was talking about allyship. And she's like, Yeah, that's cool.

00:28:19:15 - 00:28:22:15
Mark Titus
And we really need coconspirators.

00:28:22:15 - 00:28:23:09
Zach Carothers
Yeah.

00:28:23:11 - 00:29:03:01
Mark Titus
And, you know, first I was like, it took me a back four. I was like, What is that exactly mean? And now I think about it even more. And not only does that mean, you know, the literal sense of the word, like conspiring to do something bigger, but to me that means like deep listening and getting to know somebody, actually getting to know somebody, not just the outer shell or the outer skin or the outer brand that they, you know, are like really getting to know this human being and getting to know their suffering and getting to know their, you know, their dreams and their day to day life.

00:29:03:01 - 00:29:30:23
Mark Titus
And and that only comes by dedicating the time to do that, just like you were saying, you know, sitting down and listening to somebody talk about cultural appropriation and then had another fellow on just Chris Zimmer was talking about transboundary mining issues in southeast Alaska. Yeah. And it just this was a fantastic learning moment. I mentioned like, you know, who are all the stakeholders there?

00:29:30:23 - 00:29:42:11
Mark Titus
And he he then regaled the story about an indigenous elder who said, look, man, we're not stakeholders. This has been our home for thousands of years.

00:29:42:11 - 00:29:43:06
Zach Carothers
Yeah.

00:29:43:08 - 00:30:04:09
Mark Titus
So you learn a little bit, you pick them up, you keep going and keep walking. And that I think is critical. And boy, that's one of the big lessons I've learned during this pause time in in this last year is to, you know, keep going and give ourselves a little bit of grace and a little bit of leeway.

00:30:04:09 - 00:30:05:01
Mark Titus
Like you said.

00:30:05:07 - 00:30:05:22
Zach Carothers
I have such a.

00:30:06:01 - 00:30:07:03
Mark Titus
Super important.

00:30:07:05 - 00:30:33:20
Zach Carothers
Yeah, that's super cool that I'll tell her we said hello. Her whole family, the Echo artist, they're amazing. And every every single Echo Hawk that I've ever met is just like, does something above and beyond super creative, super powerful. So hell of a bloodline they have. They like they're there. Yeah. They're some powerful and influential people and with good reason.

00:30:33:22 - 00:30:46:04
Mark Titus
Absolutely. Yeah, I will definitely tell her hi. And I couldn't agree with you more. And every single person that knows them says the same thing. It's such a such a cool thing. And what a thrill to, you know, get to know these.

00:30:46:04 - 00:30:48:12
Zach Carothers
Folks super cool.

00:30:48:13 - 00:31:09:12
Mark Titus
Well, let's let's kind of kind of start wading into your home waters. A little bit of Alaska. And what, you know, you and I have dug into this a bit. But for our listeners, what is your take on what we can learn from wild salmon?

00:31:09:14 - 00:31:43:23
Zach Carothers
I really think that they are. There's first off, they're they're just such a huge food source for the entire world, for so many animals and humans. And they really I also think that they're kind of a what's the word I'm looking for, but they're they're there is something to look at. What's the what's the name of the thing where they're like, yeah, if you see something wrong with the salmon, you know that something worse is coming.

00:31:43:23 - 00:32:14:07
Zach Carothers
They're kind of at the avant garde of of, you know, the bellwether. Yeah, yeah, totally. Of, of the environment and they're just kind of they're the front runners. They're there's something that you can track, you can see, you can touch that lets you know everything's okay or lets you know that things are not okay. And it's just these fish have just their numbers and their bounties.

00:32:14:07 - 00:32:35:19
Zach Carothers
And growing up in Alaska and just seeing how many they are, these things have kept humans and so many animals alive for so long. They're just an absolutely necessary part of our ecosystem and we need to take care of them.

00:32:35:21 - 00:33:04:07
Mark Titus
Yeah. And and you fish for them. And and it's this is something that, you know, when I when I get asked, like, why do you still fish and why would you kill something that you want to save to eat it and those are valid questions for sure. But the thing I always come back to it, you know, on the sense of fishing for them myself is that really visceral connection with them.

00:33:04:07 - 00:33:28:14
Mark Titus
Even, you know, even if especially if you're releasing them back into the wild, there's something that is indescribable really about that, that connection not only through a thin line, but then actually gently holding this animal and looking into its eye and then being a part of this bigger thing. Have you have you felt that experience yourself and Absolutely.

00:33:28:14 - 00:33:29:13
Mark Titus
Talk about that a little bit.

00:33:29:13 - 00:33:50:20
Zach Carothers
Yeah, it's it's like the closest thing I have to of finding God is catching the fish and just saying everything in the moment that we share together. And, and yeah, honestly, I have, I have those struggles too with, with hurting any animal. And for me, you know, it's it's not just about the fish. It's about connecting with the water.

00:33:50:22 - 00:34:09:15
Zach Carothers
And this the place that my mind and soul goes when I'm standing in the middle of a river. But yeah, I've got those. I've got those issues, too. And, you know, once again, you got to figure things out and you got to you got to think what's worth it or not? But yeah, there's, there's something about connecting with it.

00:34:09:17 - 00:34:39:02
Zach Carothers
And, you know, we're not, we're not boats with nets hauling in, you know, £100,000 of salmon, whereas a couple of guys that get lucky to get a couple a year. I do it with great respect. And because of my love for fishing, for for going out and hunting a few fish to just fight with and then have a have a, you know, carry them on, it's just about a connection between me and that fish and me and nature.

00:34:39:04 - 00:35:03:23
Zach Carothers
And it makes me fight for our waters and rivers and fish and the environment that much more and that I've always taken care of too. It's a, it's, it's connection with me. And you mean you think about it's like I don't want to hurt animals and I know that I am a meat eater and I've I've had my problems with that as well.

00:35:04:01 - 00:35:30:13
Zach Carothers
But I think I'd much rather go out and and take care of something myself where I assume all the responsibility. Some of us have the natural, long, healthy life in the wild then something that grew up in a farm that was just literally born to be fed to people I like, I'd much rather go and and do something myself and yeah, yeah, take care of it.

00:35:30:13 - 00:35:35:04
Zach Carothers
That way. Feels more natural to me.

00:35:35:06 - 00:36:07:01
Mark Titus
Yes. And another point on that that Ray Hilborn brought up, who's a professor at University of Washington up in Bristol Bay in the summertime. And we were we were actually talking about the documentary Seaspiracy. And and one other thing he mentioned that I always forget to think about, our mention is that if you're fishing the way that indigenous cultures did that is you are fishing near the the source point for where these these fish come home to spawn.

00:36:07:03 - 00:36:29:18
Mark Titus
You know what system you're fishing out of and you know which system are hurting and which systems are thriving at the time. So you can be more selective. And also, you know that that animal that that salmon is that's a terminal fishery that they will be they will pass on in the next two months. That for sure, 100%.

00:36:29:20 - 00:36:42:04
Mark Titus
And so if you're doing it mindfully and you're doing it with good management practices, yeah, you're yeah, you're doing it about as ethically as you possibly can, I think, you know, from my perspective. Exactly. There's there's always.

00:36:42:04 - 00:37:07:09
Zach Carothers
Good and evil like so many things in in your life and you can like you can drive yourself crazy over over how much energy you use or gas but it's there's always you know there's there's you know, is the juice worth the squeeze? Hey you know it's it's is is doing a little bit of bad to do a lot more good.

00:37:07:11 - 00:37:25:13
Zach Carothers
All right, Mike you know, from what I know, a lot of the people that go out and fish rivers, they're the people that pick up the trash. They're the people that I get mad at, people not not handling fish properly. And it's like the more you get into fishing, the bigger advocate you are for these waters and these animals.

00:37:25:15 - 00:37:44:08
Zach Carothers
And, you know, it's it's more stuff like it's dams and hatcheries and like a bunch of the big things that mess us up, you know, it's like the water crisis in California when it was like, all right, don't water your lawn, don't take showers. I do realize, like, these farms, you know, it's like rice.

00:37:44:08 - 00:37:44:22
Mark Titus
Paddies.

00:37:44:22 - 00:38:24:19
Zach Carothers
In California, like it's just one of these, like giant, massive farms shut off their water for one day. It's pretty much equal to the entire Los Angeles area. Just not taking a shower, like using you're like, come on. There's a there's a lot bigger things. There's huge companies that that dump just that are responsible for massive amounts of pollution and countries that just have like really low regulations that's really doing harmful things to the environment and like, you know definitely think within yourself and what you can do yourself in your home and everything.

00:38:24:19 - 00:38:32:09
Zach Carothers
But like there's also there's some really big things that that we've got to take care of as well.

00:38:32:11 - 00:39:02:17
Mark Titus
Yeah. And it's can be overwhelming our our friends our foreman talks about it in In the Wild in my documentary about feeling like these issues are so big you feel overwhelmed and helpless and paralyzed. And that's why, to me, an issue like Bristol Bay is so critical because it's something that we can get, right? It hasn't been done yet.

00:39:02:19 - 00:39:29:09
Mark Titus
It is it is still pristine in its current state and we don't have it, you know, backwards yet. We don't have to go backwards yet. And we know like I mean, the Klamath is now God, it's amazing. Klamath is going to be dam free here soon. It's incredible. The Elwha is a thriving and glorious success story after removing those two salmon killing dams.

00:39:29:15 - 00:39:43:03
Mark Titus
But it took 40 years. It took 40 years and $350 million and it took dozens of people and the tribe and orgs and the federal government, I mean, the whole thing. And it's like, why? Why would you do that?

00:39:43:05 - 00:40:07:15
Zach Carothers
And that's why Bristol Bay, it's like, you know, we could do nothing and just leave it how it is, right? That's like we got to start. You know, start doing that instead of wasting so much time and resources and and building things that don't work. I know like, everybody's trying to figure things out. A lot of times in hindsight is like, we fucked up that that didn't actually end up helping at all.

00:40:07:17 - 00:40:15:19
Zach Carothers
But now that we know, let's move forward with that knowledge and get domains away. Absolutely.

00:40:15:19 - 00:40:42:22
Mark Titus
And the the other, you know, glorious part about Bristol Bay is you can you can have it all. It's, you know, the the big J word jobs. You know, it's always the the toggle on every politician's keyboard. You know, you've got that it was just reevaluated at that the commercial fishery alone is worth $2 billion totally to the American economy economy with over 15,000 jobs a year.

00:40:43:00 - 00:41:06:21
Mark Titus
And for, you know, the extraction of a little bit of gold and copper, really in the grand scheme of things that could potentially destroy all of that. So here we are in this pause moment for Bristol Bay. We you know, we know back in November that the Army Corps put a pause on there and rejected their application for a dredge and fill permit.

00:41:06:23 - 00:41:41:20
Mark Titus
And now we're at this point of asking the federal government, the US EPA, to veto this thing once and for all and asking why we've got this current administration to find a way to permanently protect this place. Yeah, I know this is a this is something that's near and dear to your heart as well. And, you know, are there do you have any insights on, you know, work that you guys are doing or other ways that folks can get involved or even other questions you have about about Bristol Bay at this point?

00:41:41:22 - 00:41:58:13
Zach Carothers
I mean, it's just things like this, I think I think you're the guy that I would I would turn people to when they ask me about these things. But I just kind of, you know, look at the big picture and yeah, yeah, jobs are important. People do have to make a living believe this. These salmon are gold. They're sustainable gold.

00:41:58:13 - 00:42:24:03
Zach Carothers
They give birth to little baby pieces of gold that grow into big pieces of gold. It's not going to run out like the mine will. The mine will run dry pretty quick. And and these fish will keep on giving forever. And that's what we have to hold sacred. And we have to, you know, just look at everything like, like music.

00:42:24:03 - 00:42:49:06
Zach Carothers
There's there's pop bubblegum bowls that loses its flavor really quick. And there's timeless songs that can be, you know, Ain't No Sunshine. I heard it when I was a kid. I can hear it in 50 years and be the same amazing thing. And that's what the salmon are. They're timeless, they're evergreens. We've got to protect those things because they keep on giving and they will give life to generations ahead of us.

00:42:49:07 - 00:42:54:21
Zach Carothers
The gold that we dig out of that mountain will not that value will fall.

00:42:54:23 - 00:43:21:07
Mark Titus
And that this is why I'm so drawn to and and enamored of the work that you're doing with PTM Foundation and there is definitely a growing awareness and consciousness of Indigenous sovereignty for sure, but also also need to turn to Indigenous wisdom.

00:43:21:09 - 00:43:22:06
Zach Carothers
Absolutely.

00:43:22:08 - 00:43:57:07
Mark Titus
Now, you know, I was blessed to be able to talk to a bunch of elders up in Bristol Bay and one one in particular, Bobby Andrew, who is who's since passed. He was a huge warrior for that watershed. And they talked about, you know, being listened to by the EPA at that time and the fact that they a piece of paper didn't didn't dictate their worth or their, you know, their judgment on what the value of this place.

00:43:57:07 - 00:44:36:13
Mark Titus
They've gotten 4000 plus years of oral tradition and stories and songs that that do that very beautifully. And so, you know, in this work that you're doing and in these observations, are are you seeing a more natural flow back toward indigenous wisdom in some of these complex situations that we're facing financially, economically, but also most importantly, as the survival of our species on this planet, as a as a whole connected part of a bigger ecosystem?

00:44:36:15 - 00:45:13:15
Zach Carothers
Absolutely. I think the main key is, is balance. And that's always been just a difficult thing with me on so many different levels and aspects of my life. And I really think that especially with all the environmental challenges that we're seeing come to light these days, I really do think that, you know, I want to we want to encourage and empower native youth to kind of step up and be, you know, future consultants to companies with green agendas.

00:45:13:17 - 00:45:38:07
Zach Carothers
Because as for as far as sustainability and just like carrying life on, as far as we can tell, there is a pretty natural and beautiful balance between. Humans and nature on this continent before before Europeans showed up. And I think just finding that balance and there's there's always things, you know, it's like fishing, it's like the lumber industry.

00:45:38:07 - 00:45:59:06
Zach Carothers
Like, of course you can cut down a couple of trees to build a house to, you know, shelter your family, but like, just do it responsibly. We don't need to take down the sides of mountains. We don't need to you know, we just cut down all of our trees and ship them to China and like, just use our resources responsibly.

00:45:59:06 - 00:46:22:21
Zach Carothers
Don't take more than you need. And I think greed is at the like the cause of a lot of issues in general. And, you know, and I'm guilty of it. We all are in certain ways. But yeah, it's just it's just realizing, you know, taking more than you need because if we don't, we really don't need that much.

00:46:22:22 - 00:46:49:08
Zach Carothers
And we can be we can be happy. This finding and the happiness that comes with finding in general equilibrium and balance with our environment is huge and such, you know, a good partnership. And when you get a piece of land, it's like, All right, I'm going to take care of this piece of land and does it's not about ownership or is I'm going to take care of this and it'll take care of me.

00:46:49:10 - 00:47:07:19
Mark Titus
I'm Do you think we have a shot at saving the wild things that we love? I mean, it's so easy to get to get jaded and and frustrated. But but if you do, what's your best prescription on how to get there?

00:47:07:21 - 00:47:40:05
Zach Carothers
I just say doing something is is the best medicine, you know, trying and it doesn't need to go need to make yourself go crazy because you always say that I could have done more. I could have done more. And yeah, you can kill yourself for any cause, but just do the responsible amount. Once again. It's all about balance and you find it in your life and don't, you know, protect the things that you care about, but don't, you know, don't neglect your family or your other responsibilities in doing so.

00:47:40:05 - 00:48:23:15
Zach Carothers
It's trying to find balance in yourself and do the appropriate amount that makes you feel right, that makes you sleep at night. And but I, I suggest to everybody find something that they care about and do something to prolong the life of it. Well, that's the environment. Whether that's, you know, some kind of cause, whether it's a company and deal with like all aspects of your life and you know, use you know, put your money where your mouth is to start thinking about companies that that you know, you support and start to look into their political affiliations and start, you know, spending your money at one coffee shop versus the other.

00:48:23:15 - 00:48:49:11
Zach Carothers
Because, you know, they kind of agree with things. It's like once you start channeling your energy into one, you know, kind of community of like minded people, that doesn't necessarily have to be just the people around you because of the way we live now. I'm on mine and everything. It's like you can really, you know, you can really do some good, build a little bit, can really go a long way.

00:48:49:12 - 00:49:12:13
Mark Titus
You know, it's that's wisdom I was talking to. I celebrated four years of sobriety and recovery this week. Thanks, man. And I was talking to one of my friends and they're like, yeah, you know, I have now incorporated that into every aspect of my life, of being of service to people, doing, you know, doing the things that are the principles of recovery.

00:49:12:13 - 00:49:31:20
Mark Titus
And I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, find that thing that that brings you vitality and life and purpose and do a little bit every day. So. All right. So now now for something completely different, what's the hairiest situation you've been in live on stage.

00:49:31:22 - 00:49:51:14
Zach Carothers
God. So many. Yeah, I figured. Yeah. Boy, it's. Yeah, it's been tough. I guess a lot of probably electricity. We were playing in El Paso, Texas, at Chick's Ballroom.

00:49:51:16 - 00:49:52:03
Mark Titus
Which was.

00:49:52:03 - 00:50:16:23
Zach Carothers
Crazy too, because I had a dream the night before in the in the bus that I died on stage. And then we showed up to this place in El Paso. It was like, is a party bar. It was super fun, but it was like real janky and and there was a crazy storm and there was little we were about to go walking out on stage and I told everybody I had this dream that I died on stage.

00:50:16:23 - 00:50:20:20
Zach Carothers
I was like, looking around, there's just water dumping, like from the sea.

00:50:21:00 - 00:50:21:19
Mark Titus
my God.

00:50:21:19 - 00:50:54:05
Zach Carothers
There's sparks going off and stuff like that. Not a bunch. Yeah, mostly on stage. It's all had to do with electrical currents most of the time. And then. Then we were getting some death threats for a little while. I had a really we had we got in a fight with Alex Jones online Infowars and and we started getting all these like crazy death threats and things got a little weird.

00:50:54:10 - 00:50:55:00
Zach Carothers
We weren't like.

00:50:55:00 - 00:50:56:07
Mark Titus
To.

00:50:56:08 - 00:51:11:12
Zach Carothers
You know, a lot of a lot of people a lot of the other guys in the band were a little more worried. A lot of like, you know, crazy people with guns and like, the guys that grew up in Alaska. Come on, dude. Every day I was just living with crazy people with guns. It like, doesn't I feel at home with these people?

00:51:11:12 - 00:51:14:10
Zach Carothers
It's it's okay. But we did play a show and then.

00:51:14:12 - 00:51:15:02
Mark Titus
All that.

00:51:15:03 - 00:51:18:12
Zach Carothers
And all that stuff. All the candy down, buddy.

00:51:18:13 - 00:51:19:22
Mark Titus
Wilford Brimley is upset.

00:51:19:22 - 00:51:53:17
Zach Carothers
With the smells and. Yes, and he wants daddy to play. But. But yeah, there was so we were getting a lot of death threats for just a second. And and we were playing a show outside of Pittsburgh, outside of Pittsburgh, in this old church called Mr. Smalls. And I hadn't really worried about the people there after Dimebag Darrell and stuff like people are worried about, you know, people bringing a gun in and shooting somebody on stage because of the things you say.

00:51:53:19 - 00:52:15:11
Zach Carothers
And there was this guy standing right in front of me the whole time that was like he was dressed kind of like a kind of like Houston Control is just really nice. A white shirt, thin black tie, like show man had big glasses, like kind of Michael Douglas falling down, which I was like, I love that whole style.

00:52:15:11 - 00:52:34:18
Zach Carothers
He looks super cool, but he was right in front of me and he had a jacket, a suit jacket with his hands underneath it the whole time. And it was front row and was not nodding his head, was not dancing, was not singing any of the words. And it was just freaking me out. Wow. And I just like, you're.

00:52:34:23 - 00:52:36:03
Mark Titus
You're freaking me out right now.

00:52:36:04 - 00:53:05:09
Zach Carothers
I know, right? And I just kept looking at his hands and I'm just like, because I was the closest one to Mike. So this guy moves. I got to go and kick this guy in the face as fast as I can. And it was incredibly distracting. I kept messing up and like forgetting where I was and songs then more than halfway through the set, like 45 minutes in, I realized, he was standing next to I couldn't really tell excuse with a few friends, but he had a date that was also dressed up who is having the time of her life?

00:53:05:14 - 00:53:24:17
Zach Carothers
And I was like, he just took his girlfriend to see her favorite band. And he doesn't really like us. And so he's just going to be a good boyfriend. I was like, I was like, Why is this guy all dressed up super nice? Like not singing, not a good time in the very front row. And then I saw his girl.

00:53:24:17 - 00:53:37:23
Zach Carothers
There was another girl that was dressed up kind of nice that was not paying much attention to it, but I'm like, he just took her to our show and he doesn't like us. So I was like, okay, maybe feel better though, So.

00:53:38:01 - 00:53:45:16
Mark Titus
That's awesome, man story. God, I'm just sweating. I'm thinking about you just kind of furtively glancing up. And it was very.

00:53:45:18 - 00:53:57:16
Zach Carothers
Creative in the way you just had this weird stare. It was like, God, yeah. It was something. It was something strange. But no, he was he was just on an uncomfortable date.

00:53:57:18 - 00:54:13:05
Mark Titus
We've all been there. All right, here we are, man. We're going to go to the speed round here at the very end. No one escapes the speed around. All right, All right. So just pretend, if you will, that's your house. And you could. This doesn't take a whole lot of imagination for you. Your house is in the path of a flooding river.

00:54:13:07 - 00:54:24:15
Mark Titus
So of course, you get your loved ones out first. And including Wilfred there. But in addition to them, what's the one physical thing you saved from the flood?

00:54:24:17 - 00:54:35:07
Zach Carothers
Probably art. I got a really cool painting by Kilian Peterson. I'd probably. Yeah, probably grab art. Any actual painting that I could get solid.

00:54:35:09 - 00:54:44:21
Mark Titus
All right. It's your spiritual house Now. What are the two metaphysical things about you that make you. You that you rescue from the flood?

00:54:44:22 - 00:55:05:18
Zach Carothers
man. Probably my compassion for other people. I like that about myself and sense of humor. Cause I can't live without that.

00:55:05:20 - 00:55:16:00
Mark Titus
Now, especially through the last year we've been through. Well done. All right. Lastly is there anything that you would leave behind to get washed away in the flood?

00:55:16:02 - 00:55:46:16
Zach Carothers
lots of stuff. I'm all about that. Like if a natural disaster comes through and it's just like I really love being put at the whim of the universe, nothing clears the mind. Like. Like no decisions, you know? It's like. Like no options. It's just, well, this happened, and now my life's a little different, and I. I fully think that's, like, it can be terrible, but it can also be amazing.

00:55:46:16 - 00:56:08:11
Zach Carothers
And it's just something you can't control. And there's something beautiful in letting and let a lot of stuff go. And but trying to save my fish and balls, even though honestly I could get those again it's a tough but yeah as long as all the as long as all the living things are all right and you know. Hi there.

00:56:08:13 - 00:56:09:14
Zach Carothers
Yeah.

00:56:09:16 - 00:56:10:14
Mark Titus
Letting go. Yeah.

00:56:10:18 - 00:56:12:02
Zach Carothers
Yeah. All right. Very good.

00:56:12:07 - 00:56:28:23
Mark Titus
Well, good words to live by, man. That Caruthers of Portugal, the man and fishing. Fishing, brother. Any shows coming up that we get to look forward to plot on the horizon after this long, long slog we?

00:56:28:23 - 00:56:45:23
Zach Carothers
Have a few. And we're starting to bug more. We like, have some like we've announced a couple of festivals that potentially where we're just we're like, okay, we'll do it and we'll see what happens. But yeah, we're going to go out and start doing some things scale.

00:56:46:01 - 00:56:57:19
Mark Titus
And that's so great. And so if, if folks want to follow along, enjoying the fun, where's the best place you want to send them to? To, to get involved. Yeah. And all the stuff you're doing.

00:56:57:19 - 00:57:19:22
Zach Carothers
Yeah. Probably we anything that we do, we can like if you, if you get on our socials, Twitter, Instagram or Facebook, we will direct you to the things you can kind of see the fun shit. You see the serious shit. Go to Petmed foundation dot org to sign up for the do gooder stuff. And and there's a lot of different options on there.

00:57:19:22 - 00:57:39:21
Zach Carothers
We we're friends with a bunch of people. So it's not just you can kind of pick causes that that align with your values if you want to help out or if you just like the blanket thing. And what we do, you can donate and we kind of spread it out over everything. Yeah, there's a, there's a, there's a lot of things we're doing some fun merch drops and yeah, we're starting to play some shows.

00:57:39:23 - 00:57:49:04
Zach Carothers
Got some fun this fall. We're going to do a couple of short runs and yeah, I'm looking forward to getting back out there. You know, I need to go fishing then.

00:57:49:06 - 00:58:07:00
Mark Titus
I know I was just going to wrap this up with like, we need to put a day in the books and go fishing and summer steelhead is next. So yeah, I mean, well, Zach, such a I always love talking to you. Such a great conversation. Well, let's stay connected down the trail here and make sure we get that data on the books.

00:58:07:02 - 00:58:08:11
Mark Titus
And so long for now.

00:58:08:14 - 00:58:10:18
Zach Carothers
All right. Good talking to you, man.

00:58:10:20 - 00:58:27:08
Mark Titus
How do you save what you love?
How do you save what you love?

00:58:27:10 - 00:58:53:09
Mark Titus
Thank you for listening to save what you love. If you like what you're hearing, you can help keep these conversations coming your way by giving us a rating on Apple Podcasts. You can check out photos and links from this episode at evaswild.com. While there, you can join our growing community by subscribing to our newsletter, you'll get exclusive offers on wild salmon shipped to your door and notifications about upcoming guests and more great content on the way.

00:58:53:11 - 00:59:31:23
Mark Titus
That's at evaswild.com. That's the word Save spelled backwards Wild Tor.com. This episode was produced by Tyler White and edited by Patrick Troll. Original music was created by Whiskey Class. This podcast is a collaboration between Ava's Wild Stories and Salmon Nation and was recorded on the homelands of the Duwamish. People. We'd like to recognize these lands and waters and their significance for the people who lived and continued to live in this region whose practices and spiritualities were and are tied to the land in the water, and whose lives continue to enrich and develop in relationship to the land waters and other inhabitants today.