Save What You Love with Mark Titus

00:00:00:09 - 00:00:36:06
Mark Titus
Welcome to Say What You Love. I'm Mark Titus. Today we get to sit down with Aaron Kindle. Aaron is the host of the National Wildlife Federation's Outdoors podcast and he hosted me on that podcast a couple of weeks ago. And now I get the privilege of returning the favor and flip the seats on him. Aaron is also the director for sporting advocacy for NWS and has been raised and is enamored of the West, just as I am, especially of fish and all things fishing and getting out and especially trying to improve habitat for fish to survive in the future.

00:00:36:08 - 00:00:53:13
Mark Titus
Aaron is a great voice for the West and for conservation in a time we desperately need it. If you listen to this show on Apple Podcasts, I'd be delighted if he'd consider giving us a rating and even writing a review in your own words. It really helps to boost our visibility and get the show out into the world.

00:00:53:15 - 00:01:13:21
Mark Titus
Also, if you're looking for something to throw on your grill this summer, look no further than Ava's Wired.com. We will provide you with the world's best protein. Bristol Bay sockeye salmon. Always wild, always regenerative, always sustainable. You can get it in two filets, Four filets. Six filets delivered to your door. Subscriptions a la carte. It's up to you.

00:01:13:23 - 00:01:24:20
Mark Titus
In any case, you can get it any time. At Avis. WorldCom, that's the word save spelled backwards. evaswild.com. Thank you for listening this week. We'll see you next week.

00:01:24:22 - 00:02:01:02
Music
How do you save what you love?
When the world is burning down?
How do you save what you love?
When pushes come to shove.
How do you say what you love?
When things are upside down.
How do you say what you love?
When times are getting tough.

00:02:01:04 - 00:02:05:13
Mark Titus
Aaron Kindle, welcome. Where are you coming at us from?

00:02:05:15 - 00:02:08:04
Aaron Kindle
I'm in Seattle, Colorado. Thanks for having me.

00:02:08:06 - 00:02:32:02
Mark Titus
Absolutely. Well, you know, it was such a great opportunity to jump on your show. And I had such a really great conversation with you that, you know, we need to do this again. So. So here we go. And now I get to turn the hot seat over to you and see how see how you like that? Yes, sir.

00:02:32:04 - 00:03:03:09
Mark Titus
Yeah, man. So. Well, you know, we are definitely, you know, clearly tied by this great love of wild things and wild places. And, you know, my audience knows probably too much about my story. You know, we're going to give them a break on that. I'd love to hear today about your story. How did you, Aaron, come into loving wild things and wild places and and do this work that you do to save these things you love?

00:03:03:11 - 00:03:09:03
Mark Titus
You do it tirelessly and there's got to be a good back story on that. Can you share that with us?

00:03:09:05 - 00:03:46:19
Aaron Kindle
Sure. I'll give it a try. Probably shouldn't be here. Really? In a lot of ways. As far as being a conservationist, I grew up in small town Wyoming, central Wyoming, on the right near the Wind River Reservation. Actually, the town is in the Wind River Reservation, and that provides a lot of interesting politics and racial issues and so on as you might imagine, and grew up, you know, in a very conservative town from from the descendants of miners and energy developers.

00:03:46:19 - 00:04:16:13
Aaron Kindle
And, you know, never, never had anybody really in my close circle that was, you know, a conservationist with the exception of my father's parents. My my grandfather on that side was a was an educator. And he was a park ranger at times. And he was just really a naturalist. And he probably gave me, you know, some of the first seeds that were more developed.

00:04:16:18 - 00:04:37:04
Aaron Kindle
Right. Like my my family always went outside. My my dad was a bird hunter. And, you know, we've definitely spent a lot of time outside, but no one really ever talked about conservation. So, you know, the where I grew up and who I spent most time with, it would likely be that I wouldn't ever end up being a conservationist.

00:04:37:04 - 00:05:00:15
Aaron Kindle
Right. But at the same time, that perspective, at some point, I think, you know, maybe 13, 14, 15 years old, when you start maybe asking questions and going, hey, what is this? And then I wasn't hearing good enough answers, to be honest with you about, well, what about these things don't seem congruent. These things don't seem like they match up.

00:05:00:15 - 00:05:35:06
Aaron Kindle
What about that? And the answers were never satisfactory, let's say. And so, you know, I always love being outside. And then when it was obvious that you need to take care of outside at that age, I started seeing things that were, you know, beyond just incongruent or also disrespectful. And I and I grew up in a place I spent a lot of time with, with people who might drive down the road and see a raven on a post and just shoot it and drive away, you know?

00:05:35:08 - 00:05:56:16
Aaron Kindle
And it was about that age, 15 years old, so or so that I said, you know, that's not right. And I and I'm wondering what this is and started asking those questions. And from there I kind of just decided I'm not going to hunt at all. I don't if that's what hunting is, then I'm not going to do it.

00:05:56:18 - 00:06:17:16
Aaron Kindle
And like I said, my dad was a bird hunter, but he didn't bird hunt that much. And it wasn't him that I was out with. He was an ethical hunter. He just wasn't that into hunting or, you know, we'd go out and chop wood and spend time fishing and doing things. But I just saw some things, a long way of saying I just saw some things that I said, That's not me.

00:06:17:18 - 00:06:49:12
Aaron Kindle
And so eventually I sold the couple of guns I had, and I said, I'm not hunting anymore. And it wasn't until I was in my mid twenties, I moved to Montana to go to graduate school, and I met some people who showed me that, you know, whether it be hunting or outdoors or or whatnot, particularly with hunting, because hunting the sensitive thing, like if you hunt you, you need the people who help you feel good about it because it's you taking a life.

00:06:49:12 - 00:07:10:22
Aaron Kindle
It's a serious thing. It's a that's for sure. You know, you don't you don't do that haphazardly. And that was the most sensitive aspect of growing up. But so the reason I went to Montana for graduate school was like, Where is the wild? This place that I could go to graduate school and have all this wild land around me and rivers and all the things that I love.

00:07:11:00 - 00:07:34:03
Aaron Kindle
And so I went there and I found some people that were hunters who believe it or not, were former PETA activists and had a very developed sense of why they were hunters. It took they had been down a lot longer road than I had even, and that really was the first time I got to talk to somebody intellectually about hunting and what it means.

00:07:34:03 - 00:07:58:07
Aaron Kindle
And in a deeper level. And so that's kind of where how I got back to hunting, how I got into conservation is, you know, I lived in Colorado and Montana and Wyoming my whole life, and you're just surrounded by all these things. And from those young ages, I knew that these things were things that were precious and special and worth protecting and worth taking care of.

00:07:58:09 - 00:08:22:23
Aaron Kindle
And so, you know, I went to Gunnison, Colorado, for for undergrad. Amazing place. Gunnison County's huge 85% public land. You do everything under the sun outside there and just that immersion along with this kind of wanting to learn on a deeper level just kind of obviously said, well, you know, what you should do is you should work doing that.

00:08:23:01 - 00:08:37:01
Aaron Kindle
You should try to find a career doing that. And so that's kind of how I got initially into conservation and I could talk more. I feel like I'm talking a lot and I'm I'm used to doing my podcast going, I shouldn't talk so much. So it's funny. Tell me.

00:08:37:03 - 00:09:02:14
Mark Titus
Yeah, we're we're in reverse roles here. I'm visualizing everything you're talking about. And you know, to the earlier point, we had a similar, similar trajectory. You know, I kind of sat out from fishing and hunting after being head over heels for it when I was a young person, starting when I was eight, I started hunting for the first time and I was two when my dad took me at salmon fishing for the first time.

00:09:02:16 - 00:09:33:11
Mark Titus
But, you know, high school a little bit in college was, you know, playing sports and chasing girls and doing doing what you do. But the there was a colonel that brought me back around. And I'm curious if we have the same colonel, you know, going out into the wild and looking out over the potholes where we would duck hunt and watching the sun come up and the way that it hit the light, the light hit the the reeds.

00:09:33:11 - 00:09:59:23
Mark Titus
And that's the whistling sound of the ducks when, you know, there was obviously like the gunpowder and the guns and the gear and the, you know, camaraderie and all that stuff, too. But really, for me, at the root of all that stuff was this thing that was bigger than me. Was that a similar thing for you that that brought you back to hunting and then conservation eventually?

00:10:00:01 - 00:10:24:06
Aaron Kindle
Yeah, maybe similar, maybe a little bit different in some ways in that, you know, along the way while I was seeing things like, you know, wanton disregard and disrespect for, for wildlife, I was also noticing that there's injustice in it, right? That there's like that critter didn't deserve that. And if you're going to take the life, you better damn sure be respectful of that life.

00:10:24:08 - 00:11:01:14
Aaron Kindle
And then at the same time, you know, this is like mid-nineties, like Rodney King, lots of other social things happening, lots, you know, seeing things out there that are like these don't add up and they're not respectful of both people and wildlife and wild places. And, you know, they that just bothered me deeply. And so the place that I could find solace and that I could kind of really contemplate those things was out in the woods, you know, And when we when we were, you know, late high school age, let's say junior in high school, we kind of started getting the freedom to go out.

00:11:01:14 - 00:11:20:17
Aaron Kindle
And it just kind of started being like where we would always try to go with somewhere out in the woods, right? It was like a way from from the city, from the parents, from all the stuff. And through that, you know, you're climbing on rocks and climbing mountains. And we kept going further and further. And then next thing you know, you're just like, That's all you want to do.

00:11:20:19 - 00:11:48:01
Aaron Kindle
And then when that's all you want to do in those places are, are the places you really want to spend time, then it's, it's kind of obvious that you want to take care of those places and then you start seeing how people are connected to the environment and conservation. And often when you hurt the land, you hurt some people, you heard some wildlife, and all those connections became clear and there was just a synergy there that was like, that's clear where where I have to work.

00:11:48:03 - 00:12:09:02
Aaron Kindle
And I had an epiphany actually just entirely. I know we like epiphanies because we talked about them when you were on my podcast know, and I was actually and this is why it's an epiphany. And it's ironic too. I was driving, I lived in Montana at the time, and I was driving down the canyon that's right here by my house.

00:12:09:02 - 00:12:28:09
Aaron Kindle
I could be there in 5 minutes. And I was about to take the the law school exams and I was thinking about being an environmental or a conservation lawyer and I was driving down that canyon. My my wife's parents lived in Colorado Springs at the time, so we were headed there from Montana and the light was just hitting the canyon.

00:12:28:09 - 00:12:59:01
Aaron Kindle
So amazing. And I had this epiphany. I'm like, I'm not a lawyer. I'm not going to sit behind a desk and practice law to do conservation. I need to be out in this. Look at our amazing. It is it's ironic now, too, that I do spend a ton of time behind the desk, but because of that, I decided instead to go for a master of science program at the University of Montana that had some forestry and some environmental policy and some other things.

00:12:59:03 - 00:13:18:12
Aaron Kindle
But it was interesting that that there was like that one moment I remember that moment going, I'm not a lawyer, I'm not taking that test. I'm following my heart. And it just kind of all culminated. And then ironically, I live 5 minutes from that space now when at the time I lived 1000 miles from it.

00:13:18:14 - 00:13:45:04
Mark Titus
Wow, that is an epiphany. And yeah, it's hard to unring that bell. You know, you can't really and I know that that's the same epiphany that I had. We talked about it on your show and the bridge floated through the window of my consciousness, and I knew absolutely, without a doubt that I was going to be telling stories about salmon and for probably for the long haul.

00:13:45:04 - 00:14:09:18
Mark Titus
And, you know, here we are, you know, over a decade into this thing. Yeah. For young people listening how you you landed in Missoula, Montana, to go to school. And at this point, you'd had an inkling of an idea that you wanted to concentrate your studies and your your life in the outdoors and this epiphany was just amazing.

00:14:09:20 - 00:14:21:23
Mark Titus
But for folks that are practically looking to get into a meaningful life in the outdoors, what kind of advice can you give them?

00:14:22:01 - 00:14:46:04
Aaron Kindle
Well, first, I would say immersion. Take your young years, right, and go do field work, work for the Forest Service, work for a field institute research place. You know, the tie that binds is is spending the time quietly observing, you know, and that's what I love about hunting and fishing so much. You spend so much of that introspective time just observing and trying to see pattern and trying to see change.

00:14:46:04 - 00:15:06:05
Aaron Kindle
And it's just different than in any other way. You spend time in the woods and I'd say, try that for a while first, right? Because most people, they hit some sort of threshold where it starts speaking to them. You know, if you just if you're a passive observer and you just kind of wander through and you're thinking about what you have to do afterwards or, you know, the future, you miss a lot of it.

00:15:06:07 - 00:15:26:20
Aaron Kindle
But if you slow down and you be quiet and you observe and pay attention, you start seeing amazing things that are right there under your nose. And so that'd be the first thing I'd say and then just explore, right? I mean, when you're young, like, that's what I did. I chased around ski bombing and, you know, rivers and mountains and backpacking and just anywhere I could go.

00:15:26:20 - 00:15:45:00
Aaron Kindle
It was outside and it never let you down, right? You might go through some tough times, but it never let you down. And first find out what you love. And there's always something there. And sometimes you have to ask yourself a little bit deeper questions. Like when I was out there, what did I love the most? Was at the idea of taking care of it.

00:15:45:00 - 00:16:15:16
Aaron Kindle
Was it? Maybe I watched one species and that was just so intriguing and fascinating. So maybe I'm going to go be a a pike, a biologist or something because I enjoyed it so damn much. Above tundra up in the tundra, watching pika, you know, let your let your adventures and your curiosity guide you. And when you find cool people along those adventures, talk to them, learn from them, and to me, the path becomes clear by doing those things.

00:16:15:16 - 00:16:37:00
Aaron Kindle
And and, you know, we're supposed to be outside, we're supposed to be connected to nature. And if you give it a chance and go immerse yourself in it, it will speak to you and you'll be told things as you were. Mark, you know, And so just give it that chance would be the first piece of advice.

00:16:37:02 - 00:17:02:06
Mark Titus
That's terrific. I think that's just the best thing I've heard in a long time. Go be and go sit in it. And I completely agree with you. You know, it's a different experience entirely when you're just passing through it. But when you're intentionally sitting in it and you're able to be present and observe the patterns and observe the changes, you are changed, you are transformed and you do find your people.

00:17:02:06 - 00:17:24:13
Mark Titus
There's no question I get to hang out with salmon people all the time here in our Salmon Nation bioregion. And I see them more than I see my own family. Sometimes during the course of a year, you gravitate toward each other based on this love. So I think that's just fantastic advice here. And thank you for that. I here's a practical question.

00:17:24:15 - 00:17:31:11
Mark Titus
What is an F? What does it do and how did you find your way to it?

00:17:31:13 - 00:18:00:17
Aaron Kindle
Yeah, that's a big one too. There's a lot in that. And the National Wildlife Federation. So it's one of the oldest, largest conservation organizations in the country. Right? We've been around since 1936. There was something called the North American Wildlife Conference that happened in 1936 where Teddy Roosevelt, Aldo Leopold, Ding Darling, our founder, all came together and said, and something's got to got to be better than it is for wildlife.

00:18:00:17 - 00:18:18:07
Aaron Kindle
This was at the time when, you know, species we know today that are everywhere like, you know, white tailed deer or elk or something where there's millions of them. They were dwindling. They were down to very few numbers. Turkey, you know, a lot of the things because people were just there was there wasn't enough rules about how to hunt.

00:18:18:07 - 00:18:42:22
Aaron Kindle
There wasn't enough rules about, you know, wildlife and seasons and so on. And there was a bunch of other problems beyond that. We had clean water issues. We had we had just come out of the Great Depression. There was a lot of things that were pressing and resources were being exploited. And so this crew came together and they actually formed the National Wildlife Federation and they formed a bunch of our state affiliates.

00:18:42:22 - 00:19:17:10
Aaron Kindle
The Federation is an actual federation, so we're made up of 52 state and territorial affiliates from all over the country, and they actually vote and decide our policies and what we work on. So if we have our annual meeting, there's two delegates from each affiliate. They sit up in front like it's the Senate, and they have already pre supported some some resolutions that say, hey, we're concerned about X, Y, Z issue in conservation or with wildlife, and we think this is the direction you should go.

00:19:17:12 - 00:19:40:06
Aaron Kindle
And we actually have staff that works with them to get to a resolution, you know, similar to a piece of legislation. And then at that meeting we vote to adopt that. And that's our guiding light that says, here's where we go, because we collaborate with those folks. They're separate entities. They're their own. 501c threes, but they're our first partners and they definitely determine the makeup of how we work.

00:19:40:08 - 00:20:07:11
Aaron Kindle
So, you know, we work on basically every kind of conservation and you can think of whether it be clean water, clean air, whether it be, you know, wilderness proposals, whether it be the Northwest salmon plan. Mike, like you're familiar with, Representative Simpson is pushing wind energy off the coast of the northeast coast. We have a huge campaign called Vanishing Paradise.

00:20:07:11 - 00:20:33:13
Aaron Kindle
That's in the Mississippi River Delta, trying to restore the River Delta and bring back a lot of the amazing wildlife there in Texas. We work on a campaign called Texas Living Waters. It's helping keep water in streams and healthy riparian areas. We work all over the country and, you know, every time we do conservation, it's a mix of advocacy, policy, communications.

00:20:33:15 - 00:20:56:07
Aaron Kindle
You know, you have to develop what your positions are through a lot of conversations with leaders and and knowing what you want and knowing the history. And then you have to go advocate for those and say, here's what we care about and here's why. And you have to get people energized and engaged around those issues. And so it's kind of like with anything everybody who cares about the environment should be a member of some sort of organization, right?

00:20:56:08 - 00:21:25:15
Aaron Kindle
Because the organizations are doing the work of boiling down these issues and in kind of feeding the general public, their members, the synthesized version that's easy to go say, Hey, here's what we care about. And as a hunter, as a gardener, as a wildlife advocate, I want this. And you, my leader, I'm one of your constituents. And you need to take these as one of the things you care about when you're thinking about policy.

00:21:25:17 - 00:21:50:08
Aaron Kindle
And, you know, the great thing about conservation is it pretty much pays for itself pretty much every time. You know, there's a lot of statistics about for every dollar spent on all WCF, it's $3 and invested in the community of the Bcf is the Land and Water Conservation Fund. And that was set up with offshore royalties back in the in the sixties.

00:21:50:10 - 00:22:13:06
Aaron Kindle
We take a little bit of royalties. We put them in a fund that helps for access. Your neighborhood park might have WCF money, your trailhead might have WCF money. It's in every county in the whole country has received WCF money. So for instance, those kind of things, right? It's that cradle to the grave kind of work, right? You have to get the idea.

00:22:13:08 - 00:22:36:22
Aaron Kindle
Then you have to build the policy. Then you have to go advocate and get people to to buy into what you're talking about and show them the benefits. Then you have to go convince decision makers. Then you have to go push the legislation and get it all the way to the president's desk and get it signed. And then once that happens, there's often some implementation, right, where you have to to stay on it and monitor it and make sure that it's acting and working as it's supposed to.

00:22:36:22 - 00:22:56:14
Aaron Kindle
So we do all of that right. We have advocates, we have communicators, we have policy wonks. You know, we have we have all those people. So and the belief is we have about 350 employees, pretty big organization for conservation and we stood the test of time because we're good at it and we continue to be good at it.

00:22:56:14 - 00:23:00:10
Aaron Kindle
And and we plan on being here forever.

00:23:00:12 - 00:23:13:23
Mark Titus
Well, give us your pitch. I mean, if I'm a person thinking about I want to get engaged, I want to get involved with an org, I want to get involved, like why me and why NWFP? Why should I get involved?

00:23:14:01 - 00:23:45:15
Aaron Kindle
Yeah, I mean, kind of a little bit what I said there, right? We we have the experience, the moxie, the history, the relations ships. I mean, you know, a lot of us don't like politics because politics, there's so much mudslinging. We see it all the time. But, you know, our decision makers, ultimately, the the more people they hear from, the more we educate them on these things and show them how they're advantageous to their constituents, to their states, so on and so forth, then the more likely they are to adopt these things.

00:23:45:15 - 00:24:12:10
Aaron Kindle
And and, you know, the other part is, is talking to everyone, right? I mean, one of the things I would fault, you know, the big environmentalism with a little bit is that a lot of times it's become a we're right and you're wrong right type of an issue whether you agree with that or not, you know, there's all kinds of Americans, there's all kinds of stripes right there.

00:24:12:10 - 00:24:42:10
Aaron Kindle
There's there's tribal members, there's people in cities, there's people in rural places. And we have to talk to everybody. Conservation is an everybody thing. And, you know, making those connections serves the land and the wildlife. And so that's what we've been good at. We we have relationships with Republicans and Democrats and everybody, and we really try to think of ourselves as this big tent organization who who wants everybody.

00:24:42:12 - 00:25:06:09
Aaron Kindle
We we need to build a conservation army. Right? These things have lasting effects. They have little fingers into every piece of American life. Right. If you think you're not engaged in conservation when you're taking a walk in your city park. Right. But what songbirds came through, they happened to be sitting on that tree right there that used that riparian area that was restored ten years ago.

00:25:06:09 - 00:25:31:09
Aaron Kindle
That's just, you know, a quarter mile away. What does it mean when they're fertilizing that lawn and it runs into that stream and then you've got water quality issues, things like that, Right? There's some engagement in conservation in just about every aspect of life. And so what I would say to someone who wants to get engaged, you know, and forth, there's there's things about all of our different programs on there.

00:25:31:11 - 00:25:55:22
Aaron Kindle
Take a look there. You know, we have staffers that that work on so many different aspects of this that are very developed positions that you can learn about. And if it's not in the belief, just get involved in conservation, you know, give your 35 bucks, 35 bucks or or whatever it is for your annual membership, for your conservation organization is is a minimum thing, right?

00:25:55:22 - 00:26:21:04
Aaron Kindle
I mean, you can do that, invest a little bit locally to write your State Wildlife Federation or or even your hyper local city county type conservation organizations. It's worth it. It's worth the money. Get engaged, show up at your meetings, right? I mean, these guys are your leaders there, your elected leaders. They need to listen to you and they and they need to hear from you to do that.

00:26:21:06 - 00:26:25:01
Aaron Kindle
If you just throw your hands up, you know what's going to happen.

00:26:25:03 - 00:26:48:21
Mark Titus
Well, you are coming out of school and coming out of childhood with a big heart of fire for all of this. How did you then wind your way into NWC? How did you find yourself into the role that you're in now and can you give us a little light on what you're doing? And I know what you do, and I'm a big fan, but can you tell our listeners the kind of work that you're up to?

00:26:48:23 - 00:27:09:23
Aaron Kindle
Sure. Well, like I said, I went to graduate school, got a master's of science in environmental studies, which involved, you know, some forestry, some policy. I worked a lot on roadless area policy in graduate school. It was at the time of the roadless rule, which some folks may remember or just after and implementing that. And there were some state rules.

00:27:09:23 - 00:27:33:07
Aaron Kindle
The Idaho roadless rule. I worked a lot on the Colorado roadless rule. Later and after I did that, I went to work for Trout Unlimited in Colorado and I was the field person for for the state of Colorado for two you and we worked on a lot of things you might expect, like protecting wilderness study areas. These are BLM lands that are roadless, right?

00:27:33:07 - 00:27:53:23
Aaron Kindle
That are some of the best fishing and hunting and wildlife habitat out there. And they're kind of they used to be at least a little bit unknown. Right. And people didn't necessarily know what a WCA was or were what these things were. So we were working in that and in the road. This rule trying to protect the best, right?

00:27:53:23 - 00:28:14:13
Aaron Kindle
I mean, one of the things I say is, is a habitat equals opportunity, right? If you have good habitat, you have opportunity to hunt or fish or bike or hike or do other things we like to do outside and without that, you don't ride. And you can almost see a direct correlation. Places where people live, where they don't have access to the outdoors.

00:28:14:15 - 00:28:38:13
Aaron Kindle
Conservation isn't a big thing, right? But places where you see there's a lot of access to the outdoors and people get to immerse in it. Conservation is a lot bigger deal. That's why you see some of the biggest engagement in places like Montana and Colorado and Wyoming, you know. So I got here by basically just following what we talked about earlier where I had that epiphany.

00:28:38:15 - 00:28:59:04
Aaron Kindle
I went to school, just followed my heart. And it was interesting. I went on the Smith River in Montana, which is a famed river. There's actually a mine that's proposed up above there that there's been a fight going to you know, we're worried about the similar things that we're worried about. And Bristol Bay wouldn't have the same level of impact.

00:28:59:04 - 00:29:31:06
Aaron Kindle
But certainly it's a pristine landscape when on the Smith River, right when I graduated and the folks at two, you actually had called me three times while I was gone to set up an interview. And the last one said, you know, this is the last time we're going to try you. But I had been gone for a week completely off the grid, but that from that moment I took that job, moved back down to Colorado and have just kind of thought of myself as a student and a sponge the whole time.

00:29:31:06 - 00:30:20:12
Aaron Kindle
Right. There's there's always more to learn. There's never a dearth of conservation issues. So I've just immersed I've been on a couple of boards of nonprofits as other learning experiences. And then I got to to the National Wildlife Federation about six years ago. I came over here to to work on hunting, angling, conservation issues specifically. At this point, you know, well after my mid-twenties and and that immersion that we talked about earlier got me back into hunting and fishing and just so deeply in love with with hunting, particularly that visceral connection and that that amazingness that that is derived from, from eating something that that, you know, is that wild and free and that you

00:30:20:12 - 00:30:47:07
Aaron Kindle
did all the work to hike it back home and and butchered and take care of it. And you know that to me was was just I knew I was supposed to be doing that. It had so many little fingers back to, you know, I could I could feel my ancient ancestors somewhere in there like these little inklings of some our people, everybody's people have done this for millennia, and we're supposed to be doing this.

00:30:47:07 - 00:31:32:09
Aaron Kindle
And it and it just reconnected me. And so then that was like sporting conservation, right? To make sure that we have this is where I want to be. So I came down there about six years ago, started as our Western field guy, working on things like energy development. You know, there's massive energy development across the West and it has a big impact on fish and wildlife advocacy as far as like getting more voices, more credible voices, talking to people, talking to decision makers, helped to get this thing called Artemus going, which is our Sports women's initiative, and that's getting more women's voices and more women hunter anglers out there, you know, knew some incredible women

00:31:32:09 - 00:31:53:23
Aaron Kindle
that were doing amazing things and just weren't being highlighted enough. And they were also thinking about it and and communicating it in such amazing ways that were different and fresh and smart. And I was like, Why isn't this something that we're highlighting and showcasing? And if you look at a lot of the sporting conservation history, it's all our men.

00:31:54:01 - 00:32:03:07
Aaron Kindle
And so it really promoted that. And I mean, I can get into what we're working on now, but that's kind of the story of how I got here.

00:32:03:09 - 00:32:34:02
Mark Titus
Yeah, And by the way, I love that title, Artemus. I think that's just beautiful and brilliant. And I noticed that earlier today. And it's it I think it's perfect. One little side channel before we get into the kind of the big ticket items that you're working on right now. You mentioned earlier in the conversation that you kind of came back into your outdoors hunting in particular through kind of a unique doorway.

00:32:34:02 - 00:32:55:20
Mark Titus
Yeah. Let's say you became friends with somebody who was an advocate and an activist for PETA. How did just I'm curious from my own satisfaction, like how did that come about? Like both on their side of things, coming to hunting and then did that fuel that kind of pure feeling that you were talking about earlier with that connectivity?

00:32:55:22 - 00:33:18:23
Aaron Kindle
Yeah, I'll try to answer that in full, but I'll probably miss some parts. But yeah, I mean, how that happened was in in Missoula where I went to graduate school, you know, one of the things that that, you know, good hunters, ethical hunters have in common is food, right? They care about food. And they love that that pure wild food.

00:33:18:23 - 00:33:45:02
Aaron Kindle
And, you know, we were doing a lot of gardening and doing a lot of wild harvesting of of, you know, huckleberries and anything we could find. And we came across this guy who was a farmer and he ran a big farm and we we got it was a community farm and we got a plot there It was we were living in a, you know, a condo and we got a plot there and started really engaging with the community at the farm.

00:33:45:03 - 00:34:05:13
Aaron Kindle
And the guy who ran the farm was this fella. And of course, you know, we were simpatico. We struck it up pretty quickly with with food and gardening and wild harvesting and so on. And, you know, he's like, you know, are you a hunter? Be good to hunt together. Sometimes. I'm like, well, you know, I used to hunt, but I haven't hunted in years.

00:34:05:15 - 00:34:34:18
Aaron Kindle
And and he and then that just kind of opened the door is like you don't say he's like, well, I never hunted until a handful of years ago. And I was like, well, you know, how do you get into it? And he starts telling me that, yeah, he used to be a PETA activist and he had done the thing like, know, go to a city and see a lady with a fur coat and throw fake blood on her and, you know, those kinds of things and protest outside of fur coat stores and and this and that.

00:34:34:18 - 00:35:16:23
Aaron Kindle
But he had gotten there close to the same way that I was starting to think, right. Like, okay, if you're concerned about food, if you're concerned about, you know, healthy ecosystems and you and you're looking for good protein source, wild or organic, all those things, well then what better is is there than, you know, the native critters that live right here where you do, you know, up there we could I could drive 15, 20 minutes from my house, turn off the road, start hiking and be and be, you know, hunting and literally, you know, harvesting animals from right out of the same watershed that I lived places.

00:35:16:23 - 00:35:34:01
Aaron Kindle
I spent a lot of time. I knew those critters lived wild and free. And you know, when when my kids were babies, we would float the Blackfoot River and I could point up to the ridges where I hunted in and tell them, you know, that's up where Dad got that elk. That elk that we eat lives up here.

00:35:34:01 - 00:35:54:22
Aaron Kindle
And the water they drink flow into this river and flows down through our town just was kind of all encompassing at the same time that water was was was watering the gardens that we were eating out of. And it just became this kind of holistic deal. And he was just kind of an icon of that. He showed up in my life at the right time.

00:35:55:00 - 00:36:32:21
Aaron Kindle
He had deeply thought about what it meant to to eat meat and to to harvest food and to connect with the ecology of a place. And it was just like finally someone kind of has the the mutual respect for the wildlife that I do. And I see my path. And from then on we went hunting together. And, you know, I caught the bug big time, you know, the feeling of being out in the woods and and working quietly and learning behavior intimately of animals that just I can't get enough of that.

00:36:32:23 - 00:36:35:07
Aaron Kindle
And so there we went.

00:36:35:09 - 00:37:06:01
Mark Titus
Well, food is inarguable. And I just love these stories of breakthroughs, you know, with people that may be, you know, at one point or another on different sides of the fence, but come to a confluence because they share something bigger than themselves in this case. Yeah. This appreciation for the wild, this appreciation for where a pure source comes from, what other issues that you deal with.

00:37:06:04 - 00:37:19:00
Mark Titus
Do you find this natural confluence of people coming for things that are bigger than themselves? What are some of the big issues you're working on that may have some of those surprising breakthroughs?

00:37:19:02 - 00:37:51:03
Aaron Kindle
Yeah, I guess one of the ones that comes to mind most immediately is we have a campaign to promote the use of non-lethal while hunting, you know, alternatives to lead. And one of the reasons is, is, you know, we learned back in the eighties or or so maybe before, but it really came to a head in the eighties was that when you put that out on the landscape, you know, particularly waterfowl, they like to put it down in their in their throat and mull it around rocks and things like that.

00:37:51:05 - 00:38:16:20
Aaron Kindle
And that's how they digest their food. And so what was happening is that we were seeing some detrimental effects to waterfowl from ingesting lead pellets. Well, come to a handful of years ago, maybe some people knew it, but the time that it really was kind of explored was that if you if you shoot a big game animal with a lead projectile, well, led is soft and it breaks up and it goes everywhere.

00:38:16:22 - 00:38:46:00
Aaron Kindle
And when that happens, you know, as a hunter, if you kill an elk, you leave the gut pile very often. And the carcass, well, if lead has spread throughout that and say a golden eagle comes along, well, then that golden eagle is going to ingest lead and it's going to have detrimental effects from from, you know, minor maybe maybe they lay a less one, less egg or their egg shells are thinner or something to that effect, too.

00:38:46:00 - 00:39:13:12
Aaron Kindle
Major severe lead poisoning can't fly, can't move, can't, can't do anything. And then you think there's so many other scavengers to right bears and mountain lions and coyotes and all these different things that we enjoy as wildlife advocates. And then you start talking to people about it and almost everybody goes, man, if I can if I can just keep one animal from being lead poisoned, well, then that's probably worth it, right?

00:39:13:14 - 00:39:34:18
Aaron Kindle
There's not nobody goes, Well, I'm going to shoot LED anyway because I just don't care about animals. I mean, nobody says that. And so the connections that you find, the cool people that you find that are good people out there kind of unknowingly doing something, you know, that they didn't even mean to be doing. And then you show them some of the science.

00:39:34:20 - 00:40:00:13
Aaron Kindle
We worked with the North American Non led Hunting partnership. I'm not sure if I'm saying their name exactly right. Something very similar to that. And they do these excellent demonstrations with ballistics gels and they set up water tanks and they shoot them and they show the lead they actually collected in these jugs. And when people see that, they go, my gosh, this is all going everywhere.

00:40:00:15 - 00:40:30:18
Aaron Kindle
Every time I shoot one of these things, and it just kind of clicks like a light bulb. And when we we've done this and people walk away saying, I'm changing, I'm switching, I'm not going to use LED anymore those kinds of things, those kind of like good people learning something and changing their behavior to benefit wildlife. I think those are the kind of things that that really make me happy to be in conservation, that, you know, get me to where where you were talking about there the question.

00:40:30:20 - 00:40:39:03
Aaron Kindle
So that that would be one good example. And I mean, I can I can talk about a lot more of what we're working on, if you if you like, but try to answer your question.

00:40:39:05 - 00:41:18:21
Mark Titus
I love that. That's a great visual story, too. I can see it in my mind's eye and I remember that when lead went away and, you know, you then you think about it in hindsight, you're like, Why were you doing that in the first place? That's a great example. What about in your mind? What are some of the two of the big ticket items that you get to work on through NWA and things that you think are game changers and necessary to move the needle on the really critical conservation issues we face right now?

00:41:18:23 - 00:41:42:12
Aaron Kindle
Sure. And I'll say a few and then I'll and then I'll give you a big umbrella that covers all of that. One of them is is wildlife connectivity and corridors. Right. Is as we know, in the West and where you live, you know, these are great places to live and a lot more people are moving there. And that means more roads, more houses, more, you know, more ways for animals to die, frankly.

00:41:42:14 - 00:42:10:09
Aaron Kindle
And the connectivity, both understanding where animals are going to need to move and then making sure and working to give them that space. I think it's humble, it's responsible, It's it's respectful of those critters. And there's some pretty big efforts out there right now to do that. There's some statewide efforts. I know Conservation Northwest up there in Washington is doing some amazing stuff with wildlife overpasses and underpasses.

00:42:10:11 - 00:42:39:06
Aaron Kindle
Yeah, and Chase and those guys are doing some great work. There's there's stuff in many different states, whether it be, you know, overpasses that allow for amphibians to cross in North Carolina. Right. In more wet places, whether it be here in Colorado or Wyoming overpasses, because you have big ungulate migrations, those kinds of things, both just recognizing, okay, you got two pieces of landscape that are pretty healthy and these critters have to move between one of the one of those places.

00:42:39:06 - 00:42:59:00
Aaron Kindle
Many of the animals we all love don't live in the exact same place all year. They need to move in order to carry out their life cycle. So that's something that's really rewarding and you can see amazing results. I mean, I would ask your listeners, look up, you know, Washington wildlife corridors and you'll find camera footage of they put in an overpass.

00:42:59:00 - 00:43:33:23
Aaron Kindle
Next thing you know, here comes a bear, a moose or a wolverine or a cougar. You know, anything, any kind of wildlife likes those better than trying to cross a road. So that's something that's really cool. There's there's a thing called Secretarial Order 3362, and it was in the previous administration, it really dealt with resourcing a state, fish and game agencies to to help these areas, identify them, monitor where animals are moving, and then implement strategies to help them move safely between these habitat types.

00:43:34:01 - 00:43:58:23
Aaron Kindle
That's that to me, I love because it's tangible. You can fix that and then you can see and we have a place here in Colorado Highway nine, and it was averaging about 600 animal vehicle collisions a year. They did this project and now we're under 100. So you're saving 500 animals. There was two fatalities were happening. Human fatalities were happening there per year from wildlife collisions.

00:43:59:01 - 00:44:33:00
Aaron Kindle
Those have been drastically reduced. Those kinds of things. It's almost overnight. Right. And then there's more wildlife. People are safer, very tangible connection to conservation that fires me up. We work on another thing that I don't work on directly, very much more advocating and communicating about it, but it's recovering America's Wildlife Act. And that piece of legislation is a very strongly supported bipartisan piece of legislation that is out there to support the critters that are just kind of struggling.

00:44:33:02 - 00:45:06:13
Aaron Kindle
Right. That are not quite on the endangered species list, but they're but they're dwindling. They're having trouble for one reason or the other. Each state has what they call a state wildlife action plan. And those state that's the state's plan to mitigate the loss of all these different, you know, animals. Wildlife and the Recovering America's Wildlife Act provides a big chunk of funding to go and address those and actually give the kind of air treatment that those animals need so they don't go on the Endangered Species Act.

00:45:06:15 - 00:45:40:06
Aaron Kindle
And then the other beautiful thing about that is that they that helps all kinds of wildlife, sportsmen and women should should love it. Birdwatchers should love it. Fishermen should love it, though every time you take care of wildlife and take care of their habitat, other wildlife benefits as well. And so that one is really cool. It's a chance to really help those struggling species, you know, have a new lease on life and perhaps come back like some of our game species and some of our more iconic species, like bald eagles and things like that.

00:45:40:08 - 00:46:08:23
Aaron Kindle
Chronic wasting disease is another one we work on. Chronic wasting diseases is a real threat to to ungulates and maybe ultimately people. It's jumped many species barriers. It's not been recorded in humans yet, but it has been in primates. It's a prion, it's a protein that that persists on the landscape for a long time. It needs like 1400 degrees or something to that effect, to incinerate it in order to make it die.

00:46:08:23 - 00:46:31:07
Aaron Kindle
So it's in urine, it's in body, it's in body fluids that needs to be addressed deeply. Right. And so there's some there's some different legislation out there we're hoping to see happen that would provide some more funding for research. Right now, there's not a live test where where the animal can stay alive and be tested. We need that.

00:46:31:09 - 00:46:58:00
Aaron Kindle
We need things like game farms. You should not be able to have wild animals in farms. And that's one of the biggest transmission vectors that we're seeing interstate commerce and transport. You shouldn't be able to just take animals willy nilly that could perhaps have s.w.o.r.d. across state lines and into other places, really transfer them anywhere. You know, that's a that's a severe threat.

00:46:58:00 - 00:47:28:06
Aaron Kindle
It's not documented enough or regulated enough when people do do that. So we really want to see some some movement on CW D That's another big one. And then last I'll just end with, you know, there's a few different things happening right now in the new administration, this thing called 3030, which is the idea of protecting and conserving 30% of the landscape and waters by 2032 in order to, you know, stave off some of the worst impacts of just habitat loss and biodiversity loss.

00:47:28:08 - 00:47:50:07
Aaron Kindle
That's a big one. You're going to see more and more about that all the time. We're working on that deeply, hoping that private lands and public lands and everybody can get engaged. And then along those lines, too, is infrastructure. You've heard the president probably talk a little bit most people about infrastructure lately. Infrastructure is more important to wildlife and conservation than you think.

00:47:50:09 - 00:48:17:03
Aaron Kindle
It could be replacing a bad culvert that that blown out. And then that means less sentiment in the stream and maybe fish passage. It could be, you know, fencing or water, water infrastructure that helps the water be cleaner so that when it goes back into the streams, it's been treated. It's more healthy for fish and wildlife. It could be restoration projects that help, you know, support.

00:48:17:03 - 00:48:47:02
Aaron Kindle
RIVERBANK and augment things like songbirds and other wildlife that use the Mississippi River, for instance. So those things are those investments in infrastructure go beyond just what you might think, like roads and bridges and so on. That can really help both people and wildlife. And then the last thing I'll say just overarching is climate change, right? Climate change is having an impact on all of this.

00:48:47:04 - 00:49:11:17
Aaron Kindle
We just did a audio series with the woman from Oregon who does a lot of salmon fishing off the coast of where you're at, You know, seeing out there in the waters of Oregon that are typically cool things like, you know, sunfish and and tuna and other fish that don't typically live there. Waters are warming, oceans are acidifying, snowmelt is lasting longer.

00:49:11:22 - 00:49:27:19
Aaron Kindle
That all has an impact on hunters and anglers, too, and an impact on basically everything we do. So we have to get serious about that. And when we do, wildlife will benefit, people will benefit. And it's kind of an overarching theme over a lot of the work we do.

00:49:27:20 - 00:49:53:20
Mark Titus
That's a great rundown. Erin, thank you. These are all fantastic issues that National Wildlife Federation are working on. I want to come back to this idea of strange bedfellows and this confluence. Earlier, you referred to PETA and your friend that got you back into hunting and PETA for our listeners who don't know, is and an organization known as People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.

00:49:53:21 - 00:50:36:22
Mark Titus
Now, when you think about hunters and fishermen and fish, are women your I guess maybe the first thing that comes to mind is not activists and conservationists, but it's certainly been my experience that folks that are out in the field, sportsmen and women, hunters and anglers, are in fact right on the front lines of activism for conservation. And really, you've given some great examples about how they really are on the macro level for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.

00:50:36:22 - 00:50:51:06
Mark Titus
Can you first of all, is has that been your your observation as well? And can you maybe expand on that a little bit and the work that you do and even in some of your sister organizations that you work with?

00:50:51:08 - 00:51:15:18
Aaron Kindle
Sure. Well, first, I would say that one of the easiest ways to get in touch with wildlife is to go and be where they're at and try not to be noticed, to be quiet, to be stealthy, to go in there. Most active at four in the morning, five in the morning, you know, drop out of the woods in the dark and then set up and just watch and listen.

00:51:15:20 - 00:51:40:03
Aaron Kindle
Not too many people who don't hunt and fish do that. I mean, some do, sure. But it's kind of a necessity if you want to be any good at hunting, particularly. So first off, you're going to have an intimate knowledge and see and observe things that are not typically available to people who don't do that. So first off, you have that knowledge and then second off also as a hunter, you do that year after year.

00:51:40:05 - 00:52:12:20
Aaron Kindle
So you have a longer term understanding of what's happening in that landscape. You know, even in my life, I know places 500 you go back to and you know some of those forests that were alive ten years ago are now all beetle killed. Different things are happening in that forest. And so one of the things that happens with with hunters a lot is that when they get to know and observe and intimately be part of that landscape, A, they fall in love with it and be they know it as good as anyone.

00:52:12:20 - 00:52:40:18
Aaron Kindle
And so are then the best emissaries for conserving it, protecting it, taking care of it. So I don't know if that answers your question exactly, but that's been my experience. When when you meet those kind of people, they just know so much, They care so much. They're awesome to talk to. They're great advocates, they're authentic voices, They're credible When you take them to a decision maker and they're kind of can't be disputed.

00:52:40:18 - 00:53:05:00
Aaron Kindle
Right. As opposed to maybe somebody who lives in downtown somewhere and goes and hikes once every two weeks on the weekend or whatever, you know, while their voice matters, too. I'm not I'm not trying to discount it. The level of intimacy and knowledge and things that that it takes, you know, in order to be a good hunter, you have to learn how animals behave in a deeply distinct way.

00:53:05:00 - 00:53:28:10
Aaron Kindle
You can't just kind of wander out there and hope to see one. You have to understand how they mate, how they travel, what they eat, you know, when are they going to be active, all those different things. And so that just invests your time and energy into learning about them, learning what they need. And then once you do that, most people tend to really want to protect and conserve those types of things.

00:53:28:12 - 00:53:52:10
Mark Titus
That's great. At first blush, you know, for years now when we've been talking about meaningful ways to take action for Bristol Bay, we have mentioned Eat Wild, Save Wild, that is to eat the wild salmon from Bristol Bay. And by doing that, if you demanded on your plate, you're going to demand the freshwater habitat sufficient for it to keep coming back to your plate, remain intact.

00:53:52:10 - 00:54:25:03
Mark Titus
Right. So not doing like giant megaprojects like the proposed Pebble Mine in the headwaters of Bristol Bay and its last fully intact salmon system. So the people that are harvesting those fish, the commercial, just like you were talking about with the anglers and hunters, they know that landscape, they know it intimately, they know it multigenerational. And not only is it a livelihood, you know, everything always in a political debate seems to come down to dollars and jobs.

00:54:25:03 - 00:54:54:03
Mark Titus
And and it doesn't seem to have clout unless it does. And certainly that's a big part of things. But this is also about a way of life, a way of living that is absolutely fundamental to somebody's core existence and to the things and the values that they have that they want to pass down to the next generation. So I'm in complete agreement.

00:54:54:09 - 00:55:38:08
Mark Titus
Knowing something day in and day out does bind a person to a place and frankly, a cause more than anything. Speaking of Bristol Bay, what have you observed in Colorado and the mines there and what's going on on the ground in Colorado that helps inform what's at stake in a place like Bristol Bay? And can you use your lens that you have and your pulpit that you have as as active member and often a part of you have to, you know, shed light on on the the big situation in Bristol Bay, especially through the lens of Colorado and its mining there.

00:55:38:10 - 00:56:01:02
Aaron Kindle
Yeah. I mean I guess even beyond Colorado, the West the West has a long history of Hardrock mining there's a bunch of them. Colorado's are luckily pretty small for the most part. There are some big ones, but luckily they're pretty small. Right. And the problem with them usually is they're kind of a forever thing. They don't they don't go away.

00:56:01:04 - 00:56:17:01
Aaron Kindle
Right. There's no you can't you can't give me a great example of like this. Mine is all cleaned up and everything's fine there. All of them have some lasting impact with hard rock mining. It's the nature of the way they're done when they pour that, when they pull that or out of the ground. Right. And they put it in these fields.

00:56:17:01 - 00:56:44:19
Aaron Kindle
And as that as it's exposed to oxygen, you get things like acid, acid drainage, and you get other chemicals and things that are introduced into the watershed. We had a big blowout not that long ago down on the Animus River near Durango, where the river ran orange. Like the entire river. It's a big river, ran orange for multiple different days and killed all the all the fish.

00:56:44:21 - 00:57:04:14
Aaron Kindle
And, you know, it's a water source for many places. And that mine hasn't been active for a long, long time. Right. And it's and it's something that just is going to be there unless we unless we try to do something about it. But even if we do do something about it, it's never going to entirely go away. Right.

00:57:04:14 - 00:57:27:19
Aaron Kindle
We have to treat the water. We have to we have to do all these different things perpetually. Crested Butte, Colorado, now just a tourist mecca on the most beautiful places on earth. They have a mine above town that hasn't been operating for quite some time, but the stream that comes out of that mine runs right through town and is part of the city's water supply.

00:57:27:21 - 00:57:48:10
Aaron Kindle
It has to be treated for ever. There's no plan. There's no way, there's no nothing you're going to change that has and it's a $2 million or so cost per year. It used to be, at least when I knew to treat that water that that city always has to incur and deal with in order to use that water.

00:57:48:12 - 00:58:09:04
Aaron Kindle
So that's the kind of thing I think that could happen to Bristol Bay. Right. You do that and not only do you have kind of the immediate impacts which you can, you can damn sure bet that you're going to see much less salmon, much less healthy habitat, but then also that there's not a time you can look to in the future and go, it's all better now, right?

00:58:09:04 - 00:58:34:09
Aaron Kindle
And especially if you think about that, salmon are declining anyway. Death by a thousand cuts some, some fairly big. And then you take this and you bring the sword to the knife fight and really cut up their habitat and really change the situation of so many of the earth salmon here. There's just not a good outlook in Colorado and Arizona and New Mexico.

00:58:34:09 - 00:58:47:00
Aaron Kindle
A lot of these states give you prime examples, not even on the scale of Bristol Bay, but if you did what you're doing there, it's the same thing, just magnified a lot bigger. And the outcomes are pretty.

00:58:47:02 - 00:59:15:19
Mark Titus
Right in an entirely wet climate, whereas a lot of the areas you mentioned are arid or fairly arid. What a great summation we've talked on your show about finding space at the table for everyone, and I think it's critical. I think we need to do a lot more listening to each other and being a hunter and an angler being a foodie.

00:59:15:21 - 00:59:40:18
Mark Titus
These are again, these are inarguable kind of things. We all kind of come together on these in your vision and then the work you're doing. Are there other ways or what is the best prescription you can come up with for really finding a place at the table for everyone to navigate through these incredibly difficult waters that we're facing with climate change and conservation?

00:59:40:20 - 00:59:43:05
Mark Titus
Your best summation of that.

00:59:43:07 - 01:00:09:22
Aaron Kindle
Yeah, and I think probably the simplest way that I try to approach it is treat strangers like neighbors. Yeah, right. You know, when somebody says something, I think we've we've turned into this kind of divisive nature of where we just automatically kind of auger into our position. We're not doing a good enough job listening to people. One of the things you can always do is go talk to people about their values.

01:00:10:00 - 01:00:30:11
Aaron Kindle
Their values are often similar. I mean, you're hard pressed to go talk to average Joe or Jane on the street, who's also a parent and the community member and an employee and all these things that you are. And find out that you're totally different than them. You just don't you find out that, you know, we're pretty much the same.

01:00:30:11 - 01:00:54:02
Aaron Kindle
And there's this last little thing that maybe we disagree on doesn't mean we shouldn't be friends, doesn't mean we shouldn't talk. In fact, that's probably what's going to create the most lasting conservation solutions is when disparate folks talk and they they explore their values and they share their experiences, and then they whittle it down to that last little bit and say, okay, what is it here that we need to get through?

01:00:54:04 - 01:01:16:12
Aaron Kindle
And if you've established a relationship by reaching out to them, by treating them with respect, by listening, then the chances of their becoming a lasting solution are much greater, in my opinion. So the first piece of advice I would give to anybody is just, you know, don't be a keyboard warrior. Don't sit in your house and throw barbs at people.

01:01:16:14 - 01:01:44:18
Aaron Kindle
Go talk to them. You know, go actually think about what you have in common of think about your differences. Right. Don't fall into the traps that the politicians set for us that are trying to divide us. Think of the country like a community, right? We all want the same things. We all want healthy landscapes, healthy environment for our families, good schools, clean air, you know, safe communities.

01:01:44:20 - 01:02:10:11
Aaron Kindle
I mean, we all want that. And just remember that we all want that. No matter what color or race or gender someone is, they want those same things. If you can keep that in mind when you when you meet people, I think it just it goes forever. It goes a long way. And and it it both makes you a better person and it invites more interesting conversation and more productive conversation.

01:02:10:13 - 01:02:30:19
Mark Titus
Amen. Well spoken, brother. Well, we're going to launch you right into the speed round and nobody escapes the speed round. And it's it's super fun. You wouldn't believe, though, there's some really interesting answers that come for these next three questions I'm about to lay on you. First one is, let's say, God forbid your house were on fire and I knocked on wood here.

01:02:30:21 - 01:02:41:08
Mark Titus
But obviously you get your loved ones out. What is the one physical thing besides getting your loved ones out, your pets you take out of the house?

01:02:41:10 - 01:02:57:15
Aaron Kindle
boy, I have no idea. I don't really care that much about the physical things compared to you just told me what what I would take. I guess it'd probably be like, you know, my phone or something. Just so that I could definitely communicate something practical like that. It's funny, there's.

01:02:57:17 - 01:03:12:13
Mark Titus
I think there's like a 5050 split between the, the, the practical stuff and then the for more esoteric and, you know, meaningful. Like somebody recently said their grandmother's letters that was a good one.

01:03:12:15 - 01:03:21:08
Aaron Kindle
Yeah. Sorry I didn't come up with a more sentimental answer there. I don't have any too many cherished keepsakes from from family or anything like that.

01:03:21:10 - 01:03:40:20
Mark Titus
It's the it's the roll of the dice, man. It's this is what makes us, you know, makes it a fruit salad here. So how about then, like speaking of esoteric, let's make it a little bit more of a spiritual sort of house. But what are the two characteristics about you that you would pull out of that fire that you couldn't live without?

01:03:41:02 - 01:03:45:00
Mark Titus
The two most important things that make Aaron? Aaron.

01:03:45:02 - 01:04:06:19
Aaron Kindle
Compassion would definitely be the first one, you know, and empathy, I guess those are kind of one in the same in my mind in a lot of ways. But honesty, it would be the one you know, there's not really any kind of one rule me and my family abide by, except for honesty. It's like that's the only thing you don't do in our house is lie about anything.

01:04:06:21 - 01:04:23:23
Aaron Kindle
And it's awesome because it's just so ingrained in us that it just never crosses anyone's mind. It's awesome being a parent that way. Your kids get to tell you the truth about everything, and it's just like, that's the standard. And if there's no violating. So honesty, I would definitely keep no matter what.

01:04:24:01 - 01:04:41:07
Mark Titus
To you big time. And that's that's fantastic. And then lastly is there something that you would let burn? So anything that you would let burn about yourself for, you know, things in your life that you would just love to see purified by that big fire?

01:04:41:09 - 01:05:07:21
Aaron Kindle
Sure. Any bitterness and anger, right? I mean, that's only an inhibitor to to doing good things and treating people right. And, you know, if you if you look at people who do bad things, they're usually someone who's done something bad to them. They're bitter. They're angry. Excuse me? They're angry because someone's mistreated them. Right. And so that is an inhibiting factor to being a good human is holding onto anger and being bitter.

01:05:07:23 - 01:05:12:06
Aaron Kindle
So I would leave that very wise.

01:05:12:06 - 01:05:27:03
Mark Titus
My friend, Aaron Kendall, thank you for joining us today. And for folks out there who want to follow along with the work you're doing and get involved, where where will you send people to join and follow along the work that you're doing?

01:05:27:05 - 01:05:52:17
Aaron Kindle
Sure. The quick way is just look up NWA outdoors. We have NWA Outdoors Dawg, which is our podcast. We have NWA fought back, Slash Outdoors is our website. I'd say check out Artemus to Artemus is amazing to check out. You know, Facebook and Instagram are all all just pretty simple with those words if you search them.

01:05:52:19 - 01:06:08:20
Mark Titus
Well, fantastic. I am really grateful for the time we get to spend together. I'm looking forward to some more down the trail here. But for today, thank you, Aaron, for joining us here on Say what You Love and I'll look forward to our next conversation. So long for now.

01:06:08:22 - 01:06:13:15
Aaron Kindle
And sir, thank you. Hopefully one day we'll well-aligned together. Doctor That sounds.

01:06:13:15 - 01:06:16:06
Mark Titus
Great, man. Take care.

01:06:16:08 - 01:06:31:05
Music
How do you save what you love?
How do you save what you love?

01:06:31:06 - 01:06:57:05
Mark Titus
Thank you for listening to save what you love. If you like what you're hearing, you can help keep these conversations coming your way by giving us a rating on Apple Podcasts. You can check out photos and links from this episode at evaswild.com. While there, you can join our growing community by subscribing to our newsletter, you'll get exclusive offers on wild salmon shipped to your door and notifications about upcoming guests and more great content on the way.

01:06:57:07 - 01:07:35:20
Mark Titus
That's at evaswild.com. That's the word Save spelled backwards Wild Tor.com. This episode was produced by Tyler White and edited by Patrick Troll. Original music was created by Whiskey Class. This podcast is a collaboration between Ava's Wild Stories and Salmon Nation and was recorded on the homelands of the Duwamish. People. We'd like to recognize these lands and waters and their significance for the people who lived and continued to live in this region whose practices and spiritualities were and are tied to the land in the water, and whose lives continue to enrich and develop in relationship to the land waters and other inhabitants today.